I will try to be scholarly. People like myself are non-op transsexuals. I resent being told that all the sacrifices I made to live a female life don't count for as much simply because SRS is not my top or even second priority. (Sacrifices like doing illegal things to obtain hormones while I was very young, risking getting thrown out of school, getting thrown out of school, risking my life and health just to survive, yes at one point having to regress to male life only to come back to female life.) I could spend every dime I have now and have a quickie chop down in guatemala or the Bahama's or someplace like that. But it's just not that important to me. I could cut it off myself. But I like having sensitive nerve endings so that I can enjoy sex. So for me only the best possible surgery will do. I do not want to compromise.

Every NON op that I know has LONG range plans that include SRS at some indefinate date in the future. Most of these young ladies have had the same problems as I do. We all work damm hard to overcome them.

HOW DARE YOU TRIVIALIZE OUR CONDITION. HOW DARE YOU DEFINE US. Well let me see how you like it lady.

You obsession with having SRS and having a vagina is clear evidence that you ma'm are a Autogynephile! You meet all the criteria. Based on your picture and the 5 o'Clock shadow still present even after electro and layers of makeup I would say that you have no concern for being thought attractive to MEN WOMEN or anyone else but yourself as you look in the mirror and play with yourself. Now don't you dare whine about how horrible it is for someone else to define you as such after you have went ahead and done likewise.

Either live and let live or prepare to taste your own rhetorical medicine.

H Farmer commented on "Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op Notion" by Sharon Gaughan (Me):

>... I will try to be scholarly. People like myself are non-op
>transsexuals. I resent being told that all the sacrifices I
>made to live a female life don't count for as much simply
>because SRS is not my top or even second priority.

The article does not say that. In fact, we are supportive of all people born transsexual in transition. That is why TS-Si exists in the first place.

I do wonder though, about your statement that SRS is not your "top or even second priority". Perhaps you have made a tactical decision to get certain things in place before proceeding with SRS. The end result is the same, however long it takes.

>Sacrifices like doing illegal things to obtain hormones
>while I was very young, ... So for me only the best
>possible surgery will do. I do not want to compromise.

So you are pre-op, waiting until you have the resources to proceed with SRS?

>Every NON op that I know has LONG range plans that include
>SRS at some indefinate date in the future. Most of these
>young ladies have had the same problems as I do. We all
>work damm hard to overcome them.

Good. It can be very hard wotk. I surely know that from personal experience. I, Lisa Thompson, and all of the rest of the post-ops involved in his project are supportive of your goals. We wish you Godspeed on your journey.

Please be advised, though, that many transgender activistss have co-opted the term "non-op" for their own purposes. They see SRS as a lifestyle option. We know it is not. We know it is a necessary step to acieve completion. That was the central thrust of the column.

>HOW DARE YOU TRIVIALIZE OUR CONDITION. HOW DARE YOU
>DEFINE US. ,,,

No need to shout. I do not trivialize your condition any more than Lisa and I would trivialize our own. We all were born with the same condition. We just happen to be further along than you at this point. Others, long post-op, are very far beyond us.

>... Well let me see how you like it lady.

>You obsession with having SRS and having a vagina is clear
>evidence that you ma'm are a Autogynephile! You meet all
>the criteria.

No.

>Based on your picture and the 5 o'Clock shadow still
>present even after electro and layers of makeup ...

It may be a bad photo, but I do not have a 5 o'clock shadow. Lots of electrolysis and laser treatments saw to that. As for makeup, I wear light makeup and do not use matte - never did, never will. Maybe it was the outdoor lighting. We will check it out and consider using another picture.

>I would say that you have no concern for being thought
>attractive to MEN WOMEN or anyone else but yourself ...

I am in a committed relationship with another woman, have an active professional life, and a loving family and friends. As for attractiveness, most 65-year-old women are not deemed particularly attractive. However, my partner thinks so and that is all that matters to me.

>... as you look in the mirror and play with yourself.

That is a horrible insult for a woman born transsexual (aka HBS), completely innapropriate given the context.

>Now don't you dare whine about how horrible it is for
>someone else to define you as such after you have went
>ahead and done likewise.

I haven't defined you at all, merely dealt with one of the worst of the TG predations. You say you are born transsexual, but react like our TG critics.

Here are some additional TS-Si.org articles to help clarify the situation:

TS-Si Editorials:

"Transsexual Self-Determination"
http://ts-si.org/content/view/1430/995/

"Facts Of Life"
http://ts-si.org/content/view/2378/995/

"WA State: Discredited Research, Religious Bias"
http://ts-si.org/content/view/1958/995/

Lisa Thompson's opinion column, Global Warning:

"Drinking The Transgender Kool-aid"
http://ts-si.org/content/view/2432/995/

"Anti-Transsexual Rants"
http://ts-si.org/content/view/2400/995/

>Either live and let live or prepare to taste your
>own rhetorical medicine.

We live or let live and try to help others as we can. However lots of TGs have tried to interfere with our work. Fortunately, we have many allies to help us.

Overall, our reception has been strongly positive. All comments are welcome and I thank you for yours.

I was willing to look past your ad hominems because I thought it worth airing out your misunderstanding before the public. Please feel free to comment further, given my response.

Regards,
Sharon

Your argument is disingenuous. Regardless of how you define 'transsexual' or 'transgender', non-op or pre-op, you can't claim that a woman who takes every step to pass in public and live as a woman yet opts not to have surgery, is less of a woman. Should we not be more open-minded and not define someone based on what organs he or she has? I know that I don't have the authority on this subject that someone like yourself does, as I am simply a natural, genetic male. Nonetheless, I think that we should attach less meaning to our anatomy. The phallus does not have to be irrevocably masculine, and the vagina does not have to necessarily be feminine.

Suppose that I met a non-op transsexual/transgender MtF. When I found out about it, I would not think of this person as less of a woman, let alone as a man, as long as she identifies as female. No, I would view her anatomy as only part of her, as part of a woman. The phallus will have become, if I may say so, a feminine object. I don't mean to be disingenuous either, as I recognize that the vast majority, or maybe all, of transsexuals view their anatomy as incorrect, as something that must be fixed. But I think that we should also recognize that, in some cases, one may have a different, and equally valid, interpretation of one's anatomy.

Matthew's well written words are in quotations.

"Your argument is disingenuous."

How so?

"Regardless of how you define 'transsexual' or 'transgender', non-op or pre-op, you can't claim that a woman who takes every step to pass in public and live as a woman yet opts not to have surgery, is less of a woman."

A woman does not need to "pass". A woman is.

"Should we not be more open-minded and not define someone based on what organs he or she has?"

No. A male person has a working penis. A woman has a vagina. A male person has a body full of testosterone that a woman can smell. A female person has a body full of estrogen and testosterone levels so low as to be non-existent when compared to the male level.

A woman is female; a man is male. The one with a penis pentrates the one with a vagina. A brain driven by testosterone works differently than a brain driven by estrogen.

"I know that I don't have the authority on this subject that someone like yourself does, as I am simply a natural, genetic male. Nonetheless, I think that we should attach less meaning to our anatomy."

Since anatomy is not important, you should have no objections to removing your male genitalia (you don't need your penis or your gonads to be a woman anyway).

The term "natural, genetic male" is a null set. There are XY females who have AIS. Are they genetically male or female? Conventional thinking says they are male, but in all physical aspects except their XY chromosomes they are female. Chromosomes are not everything.

"The phallus does not have to be irrevocably masculine, and the vagina does not have to necessarily be feminine."

"Masculine" and "Feminine" are social driven expectations, ideal archetypes, adjectives, that do not necessaryily have a one to one correspondence with male and female physiology. A penis is male, not masculine; a vagina is female, not feminine.

"Suppose that I met a non-op Transsexual/transgender MtF."

An oxymoron and a hypothetical. There are men and women born with Harry Benjamin Syndrome (formerly transexuality) who are pre-op (for various reasons: transition, medical conditons, lack of money, opportunity) and there are men and women born with Harry Benjamin Syndrome who are post-op (we call them women and men). There are no men or women born with Harry Benjamin Syndrome who are non-op (we call those people transgenders, crossdressers, etc.).

"When I found out about it, I would not think of this person as less of a woman, let alone as a man, as long as she identifies as female."

So, you relate to women intellectually, not physically. In a perfect ideal relationship, you do not care whether a woman has a hole or a pole because you are not concerned with anything so physical as a woman with an eight inch erection and apparently you are not bothered if the woman smells of testosterone). You are a rare man.

"No, I would view her anatomy as only part of her, as part of a woman. The phallus will have become, if I may say so, a feminine object."

Don't you think you are becoming just a bit phallic-centric in your beliefs? A phallus (a c**k, a prick, a dick, a penis, a johnson, the one eyed bald one) by definition and physical function cannot be a feminine object except in sexual fantasies.

"I don't mean to be disingenuous either, as I recognize that the vast majority, or maybe all, of transsexuals view their anatomy as incorrect, as something that must be fixed. But I think that we should also recognize that, in some cases, one may have a different, and equally valid, interpretation of one's anatomy."

O.K. Fine. You are Transgendered. Accept it. Embrace it. Come out and go for it. Just don't try to cloak yourself with Harry Benjamin Syndrome (you obviously weren't born with HBS). Be yourself. We support you and all the other transgendered peoples who stand on their own.

Matthew wrote:

"...you can't claim that a woman who takes every step to pass in public and live as a woman yet opts not to have surgery, is less of a woman."

Did you fall asleep during science class, or were you absent that day? Women do not 'opt' to either have or retain a penis. That would make them 'men'. HBS women, during the period prior to their genital surgery when they still have male genitals, are often suicidally depressed because of the incongruity and at the very least are unrelentingly driven to have their genitals corrected to match their brain sex. To HBS-born women, correction of nature's mistake is the only option.

"I don't mean to be disingenuous either, as I recognize that the vast majority, or maybe all, of transsexuals view their anatomy as incorrect, as something that must be fixed."

See above. All persons born with Harry Benjamin Syndrome - formerly transsexualism - absoulutely do view their anatomy as incorrect and will stop at nothing - even risking death - to correct it. It is the defining essence of HBS and what sets us apart from 'non-ops' and other degrees of transgender.

"But I think that we should also recognize that, in some cases, one may have a different, and equally valid, interpretation of one's anatomy."

Yes, by all means, we all recognize that there are and will continue to be others who have a different, equally valid interpretation of their anatomy. However, they are not HBS ('transsexual' to you), they are transgender. A 'woman' who feels comfortable living with a penis is not a woman at all - no matter how 'she' or anyone else perceives 'her' otherwise outward appearance.

Kelly M, Idaho

Sharon ... Your article hits the mark! Transgenderists hate plain logic .. "A 'woman' who feels comfortable living with a penis is not a woman at all - no matter how 'she' or anyone else perceives 'her' otherwise outward appearance. " ... so true! Keep up the good work

I am of the belief that a transwoman (I'm not going to get into the transsexual vs. transgendered argument as it is unimportant to the person that cares how I think about it.....me)can keep her real penis or have a fake vagina made from her real penis. It's still girl meat either way as far as I am concerned as it is attached to a girl. SRS does not transplant a real vagina from a genetic woman. SRS does not remove the prostate gland which is a male organ. SRS does not produce a uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes or Bartholin gland. That is what real genetic women have, and if you want to be like THEM, you have to get the real parts, not reconstructed so-called male halfway parts. SRS takes the so-called male parts and throws some of it away and by some miracle it is now genuine female parts to the Autogynephile. The Autogynephile again thinks she has turned herself into a more real woman than the transwoman who kept the exact same parts in an unmutilated state of being. By throwing some of her parts away, she is now more real than the woman that kept those parts. Every male organ was made from female sexual organs when developing from a fetus. The skin of the penis is the same as lines the vagina of a woman. It does NOT matter if it covers a penis or lines a vagina, it's the same under a microscope. A transwoman can definitely have a female penis. I have a male vagina, in which my male penis is located, and my penis is my male clitoris. As a male I can have my penis removed and my vaginal cavity lined with my penis skin and I will have the exact same apparatus as the transwoman who has SRS. To be a woman like a genetic woman I would need to have her organs transplanted into me. A transwoman would need to do the same thing. A transwoman has a female brain and with hormone therapy can develop a female body appearance. That is the most important thing to me. I will gladly take a feminine looking and acting woman with a real penis over a woman that looks like a man in a dress and has a surgically altered vagina any day. I am a straight male and to the homosexual transsexual that sees herself as feminine that is what matters most, not what the "experts" think. Therefore, her argument is far more valid to those it counts the most, transwomen and the men who appreciate them. The "experts" and their arguments be damned. From a guy's point of view: score one for the homosexual transsexual and minus one for the autogynephile, and yes we know how to spot them no matter how much they kick and scream and deny they turned into the woman their inner man wants to see.

Phillip you murdered it.

I came back to this article to use it as reference for a wikipedia article. Since writing my scathing reply to this I see a popular blogger has reached the same conclusion. "Transgriot Hate On Haters" Which talks just about this. She writes.
"We can't help the fact that some of you are frothing at the mouth and bitter about the fact that you're home alone and some of my sisters not only look better than you, some of them are in satisfying long term relationships with biomen despite having five inches of neoclit in their lace panties.

If y'all would check those jacked up attitudes, you might get to use that neocoochie from time to time and not only feel a man inside you, you'll get to experience what an orgasm feels like."

They tried to make me look like a crack pot.

I am of the belief that a transwoman (I'm not going to get into the transsexual vs. transgendered argument as it is unimportant to the person that cares how I think about it.....me)can keep her real penis or have a fake vagina made from her real penis. It's still girl meat either way as far as I am concerned as it is attached to a girl.

Sorry Phillip, but a TS person with HBS has no desire to have a male organ dangling in front of them; if you have a Penis, you ARE a male and a TG or a Cross dresser but definitely NOT TS or a woman. There are many genetic woman that lack all those same organs that you just listed, are you saying that they are not female or women? Many woman also have reconstructive work done on their vaginas that involve skin grafts too. Also are you saying that if someone were to have a skin graft from their buttocks done on their face it would now be their butt? That's about as much sense as your argument makes.


The Vagina that is constructed from the scrotal and penile skin is in Fact a VAGINA; not a "fake one" as you imply you are quite mistaken in your odd belief that it's "girl meat" ( what a male sounding term that is)

The Autogynephile

Obviously, you don't even have a clue as to the meaning of this term.

I'm amused by your statement that you would take a "shemale" over a HBS woman that has completed her surgery and then you are brazen enough ( or is it a lack of knowledge and being truthfully with yourself about your sexual orientation) to call HBS women "homosexual".
How sad Phillip, you really are sad and make yourself sound not too well read on the subject of HBS and TS people.

Sadly too H. Farmer is another that seems to lack a real understanding of the term "autogynaphile"; which makes me question whether you have any understanding at all of HBS or being TS. I would venture to say that any Wikipedia article you write is going to be full of mis-information and wrong conclusions and should certainly be subjected to rigorous scrutiny and editing.
BTW, Phillip didn't "murder" anything, he missed it by a mile and hasn't a clue either.
Pamela

A woman who is a MTF transsexual who transitioned young and looks and acts like a woman even if a technicality was left hanging here or there has a better term for those who argue their viewpoint is more correct in spite of often inferior results, especially in individual cases: Valium hags. Good description. It gives a good sense of futility for reachig a consensus. I think that I will keep missing many of YOUR points and using those that people instinctively understand instead. Argueing endlessly about exact terms that are probably going to be changed in the future anyway is rather wasted effort from my point of view. I fixed a lot of complex medical equipment "by the book" and when I found that the book had mistakes, I corrected the problems and went on. I have seen many times when a field engineer had to figure out the equipment and make adjustments to offset errors in the manuals written by those who designed and built the equipment. Obviously, there are similar types of error dealing with gender dysphoria, and when you throw in emotions, which machinery is devoid of, you get a bigger mess. BTW, Phillip is really Philip. Or Philip is Philip, not Phillip....whichever way is easier to understand. One spelling is English form and the other is correct for French and Greek. I am French. I can defend my Frenchness as staunchly as you defend your transsexuality. You had one letter wrong. I am just using your lines of reasoning and applying it to my name, which some people consider important. The rainbow trout was renamed "oncorhyncus mykiss" from "salmo gardnieri" when it was noticed it was actually a form of Pacific salmon instead of a trout. If it looks like a salmon, jumps like a salmon and goes to salt**ter for part of its life and returns to spawn, it just MIGHT be a salmon. Duh. Fisheries biologists, the "experts", finally figured this one out. When I first started catching rainbow trout, years before it was renamed, I said to myself, "This fish sort of acts like a salmon, doesn't it?" At that time, a fishery biology student would have to have given an inappropriate name to get a test question counted as correct. Many such examples will show up in sex research which is noted as being far less exact than some other areas of scientific study. So the future may finally reveal there is a non-op option for transitioning when human psychology and emotion is factored in, which it must be to be wholly correct. If not and one must be called transgendered instead of transsexual, then I would rather be called transgendered and get the better result for me. The brain was once considered the major sexual organ, but gynephilia seems to have moved the center of sexuality to between the thighs if SRS is an absolute must to be considered a MTF transsexual. Poor brain, the vagina wins. A transsexual should do what makes the brain and mind most at ease for their gender identity. It might not be the same for everybody. It might have several options. As I considered the rainbow trout a Pacific salmon before the fisheries biologists reached the same assumption after much debate, I just may consider the non-op option a valid option for MTF transitioning alongside SRS and GSD (good scotch drunk).

The definition of a transsexual was first formalized on the Benjamin Scale. The last three tiers were.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)

Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman; sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)

Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible. Insufficient relief from dressing.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)

Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated.

There it is in black and white. Look it up! The way Harry benjamin defined being TS SRS is not needed. One level of his "true" transsexual can, as I think I may just be, satisfied without having SRS. I really don't think I need to have a vagina to prove what a woman I am.

You mentioned the "Benjamin Scale". That was used by Benjamin to organize his observational data in a very general way. As discussed in other TS-Si articles, he got the idea from Kinsey. Benjamin himself said it should not be interpreted as a rigorous finding and was subject to further revision following additional research.

You said:

The definition of a transsexual was first formalized on the Benjamin Scale.

It wasn't formalized - merely identified. Formal definition came later.

This site will go offline for a couple of days to complete our upgrade. I suggest you return for more discussion when we return.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

The brain is the "major Sex organ" alright, but it is ALSO what determines our GENDER. There is a difference between Gender and "SEX".
Gender of course refers to our identity and the "SEX" of major sex organ refers to the physical act of sex and orgasm.
I don't know what you wish to prove with your Rainbow Trout and another form of Salmon argument; that is a mistake of a biologist and not a change in the actual fish.
Being HBS and have gender surgery has nothing to do with a Gynephillia and it is NOT moving the "centre of sexuality" between the thighs. It has to do with making the body congruent with the GENDER of the brain. A person that retains the penis as a CHOICE is NOT HBS. There are those that for physical reasons and sometimes financial reasons cannot have the corrective surgery, but still have the desire to have it done that doesn't make them any the less HBS.
TO quote "Philip or Phillip" :
"A woman who is a MTF transsexual who transitioned young and looks and acts like a woman even if a technicality was left hanging here or there has a better term for those who argue their viewpoint is more correct in spite of often inferior results, especially in individual cases: Valium hags. "

Sorry but that's sour gapes on their part and an attempt to smear those that are HBS. Without SRS you haven't "Transitioned" you have only become a full time Transvestite. In this day an age if one choses a competent surgeon there is generally no "inferior results".
The use of the term "Valium Hags" shows how little those people really know, I have never used Valium or any of it's equivalents, nor have many of those I know that are post-op. Its that trannie's form of sour grapes because they aren't really HBS.
Pamela

""Just as transsexuals are not beyond sex, transgenders do not appear to be beyond gender.""

I was just writing about this today at beginninglife and my writings are here http://forum.beginninglifeforu...531a145506

which is reposted here below:

lisagurl wrote on Sun, 23 November 2008 20:26

Quote:

whereas many males get sexually excited without a feeling of love.



There would be little need for Viagra if the majority of men could feel sexual without love.




Exactly. Men feel like they have to have an erection to enjoy sex while women can have it without such. I know i have had many periods of wetness prior to my transitioning. I prefered it that way. I didn't like or want the erection. Today if i am talking about a LTR with a potential soulmate i can find myself all wet with no female erection. (Yes it takes a long long time for me to trust someone and well thats because i was mislead many many times by other sisters {over the last 10 yrs} who wanted something sexual much more faster and they soon realized i wouldn't give them that.)
That is why when i got chemically castrated with hormones and i soon realized the physical problem with my body and how i feel internally i immediately went out and had my testes removed in the first 3 months of starting transitioning.

Yes there are many males who marry for love but what i spoke about was the basic male erection that drives many males sexually without a feeling of love but more a feeling of sexual desire. I also said that it changes over a persons age as we all know women seem to get more sexually active as they get older "in general" versus men losing it "in general" as they get older.

PERSONALLY SPEAKING:
Myself i suffered with too much of the roller coaster up and down sexual drive from early on after puberty. It always hurt too and i hated it. I knew that my sisters didn't suffer what i did and i knew i was like them on the down cycle of the rollercoaster ride. I knew what i felt i had to do before going on a date because of this high drive that made my life miserable. Many many men would love to have had my problem as you say because they take viagra to try to get it but i hated it and that is why i wanted it gone as soon as i knew it was possible. I also knew that this thinking was how my sisters felt in regards to picking a soulmate. They soon stopped looking for attractive males and soon realized that they wanted a so called nerd or just a nice guy or a male who had a low rollercoaster sexual drive. They wanted a guy for love and they needed a guy who had the ability to give love. As for myself i would be open to a male if they didn't want intercourse sex and just wanted to hug and hold and allow the mental aspect of intimacy to be their sexual drive. I know when i use to have those feelings after i did the dirty deed and was with my partner pre transitioning i had wetness that was so nice. That is why i had always felt myself to be a woman/lesbian in a males body pre transitioning. I also know and (more so now) how much more comfortable i feel and react with people in the female gender. These two things are why i have settled down with a wonderful feeling of self love.

It however, seems to me that many who transition won't talk in specific about themselves for some fear of being perceived as not falling into the TS stereotype. I know both of my 25 yr gender therapist's told me that NO TS ARE ALIKE and that we should never ever try to fit into a stereotype.

I would like to hear from others here about their PERSONAL differences and individuality and not just a generalized answer to all who transition.

Myself i can cry anytime (in front of anyone) now after transitioning and i couldn't before. It must be a chemical thing. I also have a need to try and clarify with long drawn out conversation the details of issues that are important to me whereas before i could only do this after relieving myself of that nasty sexual male drive pre transitioning and before i could only do it with a female and now i can do it with a male too which allows me to be me more easily. I also see now how say for instance Jonas who lives here doesn't like to hear a long drawn out personal sharing while judy his wife does. I see this with many males who are short and abrupt with regard to conversing personally. These are a few of the personal gender differences / things that allow me to be me more freely. However, Jonas is a kind male and yet he is very different than Judy.

I would love to hear from you all about your own personal views of gender differences in male and female and none of you should ever feel you have to fit into a stereotypical ideology because we all do transition for a variety of reasons and ideologies of what it is to be male or female.

Another part of me being a female lesbian (to me) is that i can do anything ( EX: walk through and shovel cow s**t etc etc whereas Judy won't do this i will) a male can do and i don't need to wear makeup and dress sexy to feel female as say some do who are attracted to males and well thats just a variety of being one of millions of varied women in transitioning or finished with transitioning.

EDITED TO ADD: Yes some hetero women do everything men do too
[Updated on: Mon, 24 November 2008 07:51]

Your description and denigration of "no-op" transsexuals is absurd. It is because gender is not always correlated with one's physiological sex, that the very concept of a transsexual exists. To equate that identity with a choice to have sexual reassignment surgery is as arbitrary as it is baseless.

"Facts are stubborn things". Right. So since you are genetically male, you are a man no matter what you do to your sexual organs. Your position is as absurd as that.

Let me ask you this. Suppose someone decided to have sexual reassignment surgery and had no gender dysphoria. That would not happen, but it is logically possible. Now, you would call that person a transsexual. And that makes no sense.

Your preachy attitude stinks as well.

Dear Walther;

Your argument is without merit; if a MALE chose to have SRS and wasn't a Transsexual or have HBS then he is a fetishistic type of person and since you seem to be poorly informed, it DOES happen and those people still identify as MALE. There is NO WAY I would ever call them "Transsexual".

Someone that choses to be Non-op is a "Transgenderist" and most of them prefer to claim that Gender is a "social construct" confusing "gender stereotypes" with male/female gender psychologically. People with HBS are DRIVEN to have SRS; it isn't a "choice", it is an absolute necessity. There are those that for health, monetary and familial obligations cannot have SRS or are prevented from obtaining it and that doesn't make them less HBS; it can and does cause them psychological problems and strong feelings of internal conflict and can lead to suicide.

You are right,Facts ARE stubborn things but the definition of a "genetic male" is nebulous given the wide variation XY and XXY combinations (some 46 of them if I recall correctly) But, then what determines your gender; is it your physical body or is it your brain, what makes you "you"? well, apparently it is the brain and someone with HBS has according to more and more research what is a female constructed brain and their are apparently genes on the DNA that controls whether you are female or male. So maybe it's not so simple as you would have it.

Finally, to separate out the "transgender" crowd which includes Crossdressers, shemales, female impersonators, and transgenderists is necessary as they want to garner all the benefits of being female in terms of restroom usage,dressing rooms and "non-discrimination while remaining and retaining their MALE appendages. IN a word, they are STILL male, physically and mentally.

My Opinion
Pamela

Ths column, originally posted in 2006, has received a lot of comment around the internet. The comment by "Walther Lostos" invokes a common theme among critics. "Lostos", claims the "absurdity" of my

... description and denigration of "no-op" transsexuals ...

While one can disagree with my description, there is no "denigration" at all. In fact, I said "Let transsexuals be transsexuals" and "Transgenders can be themselves and garner respect for their good will if they cease trying to co-opt the space needed by transsexuals to fix their birth condition."

It is because gender is not always correlated with one's physiological sex, that the very concept of a transsexual exists. To equate that identity with a choice to have sexual reassignment surgery is as arbitrary as it is baseless.

If, in fact, one is born transsexual (or, more currently - HBS), then the ultimate solution is surgical correction.

In this column, I simply said that if one has not yet had surgery, then one is pre-op(erative). It is unfortunate, but true that correction may not be within reach for a variety of reasons (health, accidents of geography, etc.). However, if one is transgender - a different state of being - then surgery is not necessary.

"Facts are stubborn things".

I am not the only one to say that. The phrase has a long and distinguished lineage. John Adams used it to great effect while defending erstwhile enemies against unjust charges born of mob rule: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence; nor is the law less stable than the fact..." Abraham Lincoln echoed Adams during the Civil War, etc.

Right. So since you are genetically male, you are a man no matter what you do to your sexual organs. Your position is as absurd as that.

You know nothing of my genetics, so I assume your statement is meant to be more general in nature. For more on the limitations imposed when reducing complex birth conditions to over-simplified statements about genetics, see my column Searching For The Genomic Treasure That Is Us. Also, you can search this site for "genomics", "epigenomics", and "epigenetics" for more information.

Let me ask you this. Suppose someone decided to have sexual reassignment surgery and had no gender dysphoria. That would not happen, but it is logically possible. Now, you would call that person a transsexual. And that makes no sense.

It does happen that few disturbed indoviduals have had SRS even though they are not TS/HBS. The results have been disastrous.

Your preachy attitude stinks as well.

Saying "preachy attitude" and 'stinks" reduces argument to a place very close by personal invective.

You have read my opinion column; it is not a news report. You disagree with a number of elements within the column. Isn't that enough?

Nothing like it. When in a fit of ethical regard, I meditate on the subject populations potentially affected by our work, my thoughts turn to this website and all I have learned here: your passion, respect for science, a level-headed approach to complex questions, and a breathtaking ability to see down to the bottom of problems and identify foundational research. Just knowing about your concerns in daily living are informative.

I can't imagine what you all have been through, but I certainly admire where you wind up.

Anyway, you are the reason I came to understand in greater depth what you call the HBS people and the opportunities presented by your existence.

Please don't go away, you make a difference. Hysterical critics like the James Bond wannabe have nothing to offer.

You do.

Lisa Thompson was inspired by a recent entry to this comment threads and wrote a piece that may be of interest to readers of her opinion column, Global Warning:

Inbox: Transgender Fundamentalism
Lisa Jain Thompson
(04 Jan 2009)

great article !!
people these days are REALLY underestimating the importance of genitalia in your life
because really it's the genitalia that make you who you are!

all these liberals transitioning only to their "gender" but not transitioning fully to their target "sex"...
I mean please!

m44: "all these liberals transitioning only to their "gender" but not transitioning fully to their target "sex"...
I mean please! "

...

Why is not having a sex change operation "liberal?"

This liberal missed the memo.

I took what "m44" said as a reference to those who claim to have changed their sex without changing their genitalia.

Having said that, I don't get the part about "liberals" either.

Gone to progressives every one.

Death is always an option, and the one I currently opt for. Prehaps this is due to some mis-guided religiosity but I would rather be a girl in heaven then a 7ft tall shemale in life. I have already suffered under the gaze of others too long to bare it again. And if heaven isn't real then all there was for me is nihlistic dispair...

I don't fit in with your lables. But I still find myself looking for one...

Substance matters, no matter the obstacles, and counts for more than any other option, including despair.

We have responded with a private message: please take heart and wait.

Hello Philip.

"That is the most important thing to me. I will gladly take a feminine looking and acting woman with a real penis over a woman that looks like a man in a dress and has a surgically altered vagina any day. I am a straight male and to the homosexual transsexual that sees herself as feminine that is what matters most, not what the "experts" think. Therefore, her argument is far more valid to those it counts the most, transwomen and the men who appreciate them."

So Philip prefers women with penises who look like hot bits of tottie, over transsexual women who had surgery but don't quite match up to his standards of female beuty. What are his tastes when it comes to a young transsexual women who has had surgery and who does fit his standards? would he choose her or the one with the penis? Something tells me he may go for the one with the penis. Curious.

The Brain Theory, regarding transgenderism, has a strong possibility of eventually being proven to be a fact. The development of the embroyo/fetus is complex, involves a large number of steps, and interactions (e.g., genes, chromosomes, DNA, timing, strength, sequence of events), that the possibility of a gender variation from the usual is likely. Add to this the pregnant mother's variable emotional and physical health, it becomes more likely. Further, when considering the influence of diet and environmental (poluting) chemicals on the pregnant mother, a a gender variation is most likely.

We will have to wait and see. Although I recognize that I am biased and my mind is not immune from rationalizations, I also know that something happened to cause my transgenderism before any outside influence could possibly have influenced me (i.e., sexual, cultural, etc.). When I was old enough to recognize I was different, I felt transgenderism was a curse -- something to get rid of.

Hi, Joanne. Just to be clear on your specific meaning, could you explain how you are using the term "transgender". Given the context of this site, it would be useful to know when reading through your comment.

Typically, our users distinguish between transsexual and transgender. Some use the terms interchangeably.