TS-Si is dedicated to the acceptance, medical treatment, and legal protection of individuals correcting the misalignment of their brains and their anatomical sex, while supporting their transition into society as hormonally reconstituted and surgically corrected citizens.
| What About Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op Notion |
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| Opinion - Looking Glass | |
| Sharon Gaughan | |
| Friday, 18 August 2006 20:00 | |
Washington, DC, USA. Can we at all agree and let transsexuals be transsexuals? Human language, while inherently imprecise, does convey rich meanings that frequently become the basis for action, inaction, or dismissal of real needs. Anyone up for a game of oxymoron?Consider the odd joining of the terms “non-op” and “transsexual” into “non-op transsexual”. And what about pre-op transsexuals? Non-op? Let’s talk about it. A Little HistoryHere is the short form: the original meaning of “non-op” came from “no-op”, a term used in early computer languages. Basically, it referred to an instruction that does nothing (it was sometimes used by assembler-level programmers as filler for data areas). Managers, of course, took things around a bad turn when they used the term to identify a person who contributes nothing to a project, or has nothing going on upstairs, or both (he or she is “no-op."). The evolved term, “non-op”, did gain traction in other contexts. For transsexuals, some now apply the term to a person who, for a variety of reasons, does not proceed with Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS). Some are “pre-op” individuals in transition to eventual reassignment. Others claim no desire to proceed with genital surgery. Virginia Prince originally used the term “transgendered” in the 1970s to clearly distinguish such people as pre-operative transsexuals with no desire to have surgery. Prince constructed the term to avoid identification as a transsexual. In Prince’s view, a transgender is someone who believes they fall in "between" the genders. Such a person does not identify in part or full as either male or female. A “transgendered” person does not desire surgical intervention to change sex. That may be why transsexuals are sometimes referred to as “extreme” in their pursuit of surgery. The term transgendered later became a catchword for all sorts of people, such as transvestites, female impersonators, drag queens, and so forth. Whatever the internal emotional makeup, presentation (as distinct from gender or sex) was decisive for the transgendered. Later still, intersex individuals and others without a specific description came under the term. Transgenderists later evolved the term to a broad abstraction that included people born transsexual. Medical issues may prevent surgery? Pre-op.Some may have medical issues that pose surgery risks. The medical reasons may prevent immediate surgery, delay it for a time, or - in extreme cases – foreclose the possibility forever. Medical state-of-practice does evolve over time and medical conditions that prevented surgery in the past may not do so today. For instance, certain forms of epilepsy and congenital heart conditions used to be insurmountable obstacles to SRS. That is far less true given today’s clinical practices.Being placed on hold for SRS merely means that one is pre-op. Sometimes that can mean being pre-op for an extended period, perhaps forever (depending on finances and the medical state-of-practice). We can only hope that medicine continues to advance and people born transsexual with current medical conditions will not be deterred from surgery in the future. So, who else claims to be non-op these days?There are other people that claim to be non-op transsexuals, based on lifestyle choices. They may identify themselves as transsexual, but do not believe surgery would enhance their lives. This can include those who
Some of those who state one or more of these reasons are early in transition. They are still working out whether they really are transsexual and committed to realignment of their gender and sex via SRS. Some may conclude they are not born transsexual after all and stop right where they are or even de-transition. Others, though, say they are transsexual and view SRS as an option to be selected or not as they choose. This view redefines transsexual as a lifestyle choice, rather than a compelling birth condition with a medical solution. Transgender OxymoronsSo, the non-op oxymoron proclaims people who want to become the other sex yet don't want to become the other sex. Worse, it does not define people by what they are, but tags them with a description of what they are not. What makes the “non-op transsexual” oxymoron so arresting, and so different from a mere contradiction, is the intentional use of rhetoric to force an unnecessary distinction. In this case, a distinction pointed at transsexuals who really are pre-op, even if perpetually. Gender, Sex, & PresentationMany anthropologists reserve sex for references to outward biological categories and reserve gender for social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say side effects of a new medication vary with the sex (not gender) of a patient. Gender (not sex), in this view, is less likely have more clear definitions since it is sanctioned by the conventional wisdom of a cultural rule. I am just one of many people born transsexual who reject the confusion, caused by a rejection of biology. I distinguish between gender, sex, and presentation. For me:
Non-op? Non-transsexual. Transgendered, maybe. A person may live full time as, and simulate the presentation of, another gender. If the person has the time, place, health, and money to have SRS but chooses not to do so, they may be transgendered, but they are not transsexual. If an individual wants to have SRS, but lack one of the prerequisites (time, place, health, and/or money), and this lack prevents obtaining SRS, the individual is a pre-op transsexual.Given the state-of-the-art, FtMs are a special case. If an FtM chooses not to have bottom SRS until such time as the surgical technique can actually provide functioning genitalia, they too are transsexual and, after breast reduction, should be considered a state-of-the-art Man Born Transsexual. Changing your hair style, installing silicon breast implants, altering mode of dress, and so forth, are surface flash. This has nothing to do with whether you are transsexual. Even taking hormones may not be an indicator of transsexuality if the other steps remain unplanned. You might just be a person who wants to grow breasts or get a testosterone sexual high. A Matter Of ConcernFacts are stubborn things and words matter when trying to talk about the facts. We humans sometimes find ourselves gripped by a vocabulary not of our making. Occasionally, this vocabulary leads to destructive ends. We must have a special concern about the behavior of non-transsexuals who pose as transsexuals and publicize themselves as non-op. A common assertion has it that GRS/SRS is merely an option selected by individuals at one extreme end of a gender spectrum. Some prefer to base gender on externals, and accept the concept as a comforting socio-political or religious construct. Scientific evidence for the existence of a gender spectrum is wholly lacking because the assertion is non-scientific in the first place. Given that proponents view gender solely as a social construction, assertions about it have no predictive value. Pseudoscience & Public PolicyAsserting that SRS is an option for a person born transsexual, even when all other factors are favorable, promotes pseudoscientific approaches to public policy. Denying the underlying medical reality of transsexuals has the consequent effect of characterizing SRS as elective surgery that is minimally cosmetic and not reconstructive. This unscientific denial stymies initiatives to obtain research attention for transsexuals, improve medical practices, secure legal protection, and provide a variety of needed social services. Let transsexuals be transsexuals. Transgenders can be themselves and garner respect for their good will if they cease trying to co-opt the space needed by transsexuals to fix their birth condition.
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| Last Updated on Tuesday, 02 August 2011 16:48 |
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Washington, DC, USA. Can we at all agree and let transsexuals be transsexuals? Human language, while inherently imprecise, does convey rich meanings that frequently become the basis for action, inaction, or dismissal of real needs. Anyone up for a game of oxymoron?
Medical state-of-practice does evolve over time and medical conditions that prevented surgery in the past may not do so today. For instance, certain forms of epilepsy and congenital heart conditions used to be insurmountable obstacles to SRS. That is far less true given today’s clinical practices.
brain
A person may live full time as, and simulate the presentation of, another gender. If the person has the time, place, health, and money to have SRS but chooses not to do so, they may be transgendered, but they are not transsexual. If an individual wants to have SRS, but lack one of the prerequisites (time, place, health, and/or money), and this lack prevents obtaining SRS, the individual is a pre-op transsexual.
The TS-Si News Service is a collaborative effort by TS-Si.org editors, contributors, and corresponding institutions. Sources can include the cited individuals and organizations, as well as TS-Si.org staff contributions. Articles and news reports do not necessarily convey official positions of TS-Si, its partners, or affiliates. We welcome your comments. Use the form below to leave a public comment or send private correspondence via the TS-Si Contact Page. We will not divulge any personal details or place you on a mailing list without your permission.
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Comments
I will try to be scholarly. People like myself are non-op transsexuals. I resent being told that all the sacrifices I made to live a female life don't count for as much simply because SRS is not my top or even second priority. (Sacrifices like doing illegal things to obtain hormones while I was very young, risking getting thrown out of school, getting thrown out of school, risking my life and health just to survive, yes at one point having to regress to male life only to come back to female life.) I could spend every dime I have now and have a quickie chop down in guatemala or the Bahama's or someplace like that. But it's just not that important to me. I could cut it off myself. But I like having sensitive nerve endings so that I can enjoy sex. So for me only the best possible surgery will do. I do not want to compromise.
Every NON op that I know has LONG range plans that include SRS at some indefinate date in the future. Most of these young ladies have had the same problems as I do. We all work damm hard to overcome them.
HOW DARE YOU TRIVIALIZE OUR CONDITION. HOW DARE YOU DEFINE US. Well let me see how you like it lady.
You obsession with having SRS and having a vagina is clear evidence that you ma'm are a Autogynephile! You meet all the criteria. Based on your picture and the 5 o'Clock shadow still present even after electro and layers of makeup I would say that you have no concern for being thought attractive to MEN WOMEN or anyone else but yourself as you look in the mirror and play with yourself. Now don't you dare whine about how horrible it is for someone else to define you as such after you have went ahead and done likewise.
Either live and let live or prepare to taste your own rhetorical medicine.
>... I will try to be scholarly. People like myself are non-op
>transsexuals. I resent being told that all the sacrifices I
>made to live a female life don't count for as much simply
>because SRS is not my top or even second priority.
The article does not say that. In fact, we are supportive of all people born transsexual in transition. That is why TS-Si exists in the first place.
I do wonder though, about your statement that SRS is not your "top or even second priority". Perhaps you have made a tactical decision to get certain things in place before proceeding with SRS. The end result is the same, however long it takes.
>Sacrifices like doing illegal things to obtain hormones
>while I was very young, ... So for me only the best
>possible surgery will do. I do not want to compromise.
So you are pre-op, waiting until you have the resources to proceed with SRS?
>Every NON op that I know has LONG range plans that include
>SRS at some indefinate date in the future. Most of these
>young ladies have had the same problems as I do. We all
>work damm hard to overcome them.
Good. It can be very hard wotk. I surely know that from personal experience. I, Lisa Thompson, and all of the rest of the post-ops involved in his project are supportive of your goals. We wish you Godspeed on your journey.
Please be advised, though, that many transgender activistss have co-opted the term "non-op" for their own purposes. They see SRS as a lifestyle option. We know it is not. We know it is a necessary step to acieve completion. That was the central thrust of the column.
>HOW DARE YOU TRIVIALIZE OUR CONDITION. HOW DARE YOU
>DEFINE US. ,,,
No need to shout. I do not trivialize your condition any more than Lisa and I would trivialize our own. We all were born with the same condition. We just happen to be further along than you at this point. Others, long post-op, are very far beyond us.
>... Well let me see how you like it lady.
>You obsession with having SRS and having a vagina is clear
>evidence that you ma'm are a Autogynephile! You meet all
>the criteria.
No.
>Based on your picture and the 5 o'Clock shadow still
>present even after electro and layers of makeup ...
It may be a bad photo, but I do not have a 5 o'clock shadow. Lots of electrolysis and laser treatments saw to that. As for makeup, I wear light makeup and do not use matte - never did, never will. Maybe it was the outdoor lighting. We will check it out and consider using another picture.
>I would say that you have no concern for being thought
>attractive to MEN WOMEN or anyone else but yourself ...
I am in a committed relationship with another woman, have an active professional life, and a loving family and friends. As for attractiveness, most 65-year-old women are not deemed particularly attractive. However, my partner thinks so and that is all that matters to me.
>... as you look in the mirror and play with yourself.
That is a horrible insult for a woman born transsexual (aka HBS), completely innapropriate given the context.
>Now don't you dare whine about how horrible it is for
>someone else to define you as such after you have went
>ahead and done likewise.
I haven't defined you at all, merely dealt with one of the worst of the TG predations. You say you are born transsexual, but react like our TG critics.
Here are some additional TS-Si.org articles to help clarify the situation:
TS-Si Editorials:
"Transsexual Self-Determinat ion"
ts-si.org/.../995
"Facts Of Life"
ts-si.org/.../995
"WA State: Discredited Research, Religious Bias"
ts-si.org/.../995
Lisa Thompson's opinion column, Global Warning:
"Drinking The Transgender Kool-aid®"
ts-si.org/.../995
"Anti-Transsexu al Rants"
ts-si.org/.../995
>Either live and let live or prepare to taste your
>own rhetorical medicine.
We live or let live and try to help others as we can. However lots of TGs have tried to interfere with our work. Fortunately, we have many allies to help us.
Overall, our reception has been strongly positive. All comments are welcome and I thank you for yours.
I was willing to look past your ad hominems because I thought it worth airing out your misunderstandin g before the public. Please feel free to comment further, given my response.
Regards,
Sharon
Suppose that I met a non-op transsexual/tra nsgender MtF. When I found out about it, I would not think of this person as less of a woman, let alone as a man, as long as she identifies as female. No, I would view her anatomy as only part of her, as part of a woman. The phallus will have become, if I may say so, a feminine object. I don't mean to be disingenuous either, as I recognize that the vast majority, or maybe all, of transsexuals view their anatomy as incorrect, as something that must be fixed. But I think that we should also recognize that, in some cases, one may have a different, and equally valid, interpretation of one's anatomy.
"Your argument is disingenuous."
How so?
"Regardless of how you define 'transsexual' or 'transgender', non-op or pre-op, you can't claim that a woman who takes every step to pass in public and live as a woman yet opts not to have surgery, is less of a woman."
A woman does not need to "pass". A woman is.
"Should we not be more open-minded and not define someone based on what organs he or she has?"
No. A male person has a working penis. A woman has a vagina. A male person has a body full of testosterone that a woman can smell. A female person has a body full of estrogen and testosterone levels so low as to be non-existent when compared to the male level.
A woman is female; a man is male. The one with a penis pentrates the one with a vagina. A brain driven by testosterone works differently than a brain driven by estrogen.
"I know that I don't have the authority on this subject that someone like yourself does, as I am simply a natural, genetic male. Nonetheless, I think that we should attach less meaning to our anatomy."
Since anatomy is not important, you should have no objections to removing your male genitalia (you don't need your penis or your gonads to be a woman anyway).
The term "natural, genetic male" is a null set. There are XY females who have AIS. Are they genetically male or female? Conventional thinking says they are male, but in all physical aspects except their XY chromosomes they are female. Chromosomes are not everything.
"The phallus does not have to be irrevocably masculine, and the vagina does not have to necessarily be feminine."
"Masculine" and "Feminine" are social driven expectations, ideal archetypes, adjectives, that do not necessaryily have a one to one correspondence with male and female physiology. A penis is male, not masculine; a vagina is female, not feminine.
"Suppose that I met a non-op Transsexual/tra nsgender MtF."
An oxymoron and a hypothetical. There are men and women born with Harry Benjamin Syndrome (formerly transexuality) who are pre-op (for various reasons: transition, medical conditons, lack of money, opportunity) and there are men and women born with Harry Benjamin Syndrome who are post-op (we call them women and men). There are no men or women born with Harry Benjamin Syndrome who are non-op (we call those people transgenders, crossdressers, etc.).
"When I found out about it, I would not think of this person as less of a woman, let alone as a man, as long as she identifies as female."
So, you relate to women intellectually, not physically. In a perfect ideal relationship, you do not care whether a woman has a hole or a pole because you are not concerned with anything so physical as a woman with an eight inch erection and apparently you are not bothered if the woman smells of testosterone). You are a rare man.
"No, I would view her anatomy as only part of her, as part of a woman. The phallus will have become, if I may say so, a feminine object."
Don't you think you are becoming just a bit phallic-centric in your beliefs? A phallus (a cock, a prick, a dick, a penis, a johnson, the one eyed bald one) by definition and physical function cannot be a feminine object except in sexual fantasies.
"I don't mean to be disingenuous either, as I recognize that the vast majority, or maybe all, of transsexuals view their anatomy as incorrect, as something that must be fixed. But I think that we should also recognize that, in some cases, one may have a different, and equally valid, interpretation of one's anatomy."
O.K. Fine. You are Transgendered. Accept it. Embrace it. Come out and go for it. Just don't try to cloak yourself with Harry Benjamin Syndrome (you obviously weren't born with HBS). Be yourself. We support you and all the other transgendered peoples who stand on their own.
"...you can't claim that a woman who takes every step to pass in public and live as a woman yet opts not to have surgery, is less of a woman."
Did you fall asleep during science class, or were you absent that day? Women do not 'opt' to either have or retain a penis. That would make them 'men'. HBS women, during the period prior to their genital surgery when they still have male genitals, are often suicidally depressed because of the incongruity and at the very least are unrelentingly driven to have their genitals corrected to match their brain sex. To HBS-born women, correction of nature's mistake is the only option.
"I don't mean to be disingenuous either, as I recognize that the vast majority, or maybe all, of transsexuals view their anatomy as incorrect, as something that must be fixed."
See above. All persons born with Harry Benjamin Syndrome - formerly transsexualism - absoulutely do view their anatomy as incorrect and will stop at nothing - even risking death - to correct it. It is the defining essence of HBS and what sets us apart from 'non-ops' and other degrees of transgender.
"But I think that we should also recognize that, in some cases, one may have a different, and equally valid, interpretation of one's anatomy."
Yes, by all means, we all recognize that there are and will continue to be others who have a different, equally valid interpretation of their anatomy. However, they are not HBS ('transsexual' to you), they are transgender. A 'woman' who feels comfortable living with a penis is not a woman at all - no matter how 'she' or anyone else perceives 'her' otherwise outward appearance.
Kelly M, Idaho
I came back to this article to use it as reference for a wikipedia article. Since writing my scathing reply to this I see a popular blogger has reached the same conclusion. "Transgriot Hate On Haters (transgriot.blogspot.com/2008/03/hate-on-haters.html)" Which talks just about this. She writes.
"We can't help the fact that some of you are frothing at the mouth and bitter about the fact that you're home alone and some of my sisters not only look better than you, some of them are in satisfying long term relationships with biomen despite having five inches of neoclit in their lace panties.
If y'all would check those jacked up attitudes, you might get to use that neocoochie from time to time and not only feel a man inside you, you'll get to experience what an orgasm feels like."
They tried to make me look like a crack pot.
The Vagina that is constructed from the scrotal and penile skin is in Fact a VAGINA; not a "fake one" as you imply you are quite mistaken in your odd belief that it's "girl meat" ( what a male sounding term that is)
Quote:Obviously, you don't even have a clue as to the meaning of this term.
I'm amused by your statement that you would take a "shemale" over a HBS woman that has completed her surgery and then you are brazen enough ( or is it a lack of knowledge and being truthfully with yourself about your sexual orientation) to call HBS women "homosexual".
How sad Phillip, you really are sad and make yourself sound not too well read on the subject of HBS and TS people.
Sadly too H. Farmer is another that seems to lack a real understanding of the term "autogynaphile" ; which makes me question whether you have any understanding at all of HBS or being TS. I would venture to say that any Wikipedia article you write is going to be full of mis-information and wrong conclusions and should certainly be subjected to rigorous scrutiny and editing.
BTW, Phillip didn't "murder" anything, he missed it by a mile and hasn't a clue either.
Pamela
Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman; sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.
Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible. Insufficient relief from dressing.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.
Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticreli ef only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation , if too long frustrated.
There it is in black and white. Look it up! The way Harry benjamin defined being TS SRS is not needed. One level of his "true" transsexual can, as I think I may just be, satisfied without having SRS. I really don't think I need to have a vagina to prove what a woman I am.
You said:
Quote:It wasn't formalized - merely identified. Formal definition came later.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Gender of course refers to our identity and the "SEX" of major sex organ refers to the physical act of sex and orgasm.
I don't know what you wish to prove with your Rainbow Trout and another form of Salmon argument; that is a mistake of a biologist and not a change in the actual fish.
Being HBS and have gender surgery has nothing to do with a Gynephillia and it is NOT moving the "centre of sexuality" between the thighs. It has to do with making the body congruent with the GENDER of the brain. A person that retains the penis as a CHOICE is NOT HBS. There are those that for physical reasons and sometimes financial reasons cannot have the corrective surgery, but still have the desire to have it done that doesn't make them any the less HBS.
TO quote "Philip or Phillip" :
"A woman who is a MTF transsexual who transitioned young and looks and acts like a woman even if a technicality was left hanging here or there has a better term for those who argue their viewpoint is more correct in spite of often inferior results, especially in individual cases: Valium hags. "
Sorry but that's sour gapes on their part and an attempt to smear those that are HBS. Without SRS you haven't "Transitioned" you have only become a full time Transvestite. In this day an age if one choses a competent surgeon there is generally no "inferior results".
The use of the term "Valium Hags" shows how little those people really know, I have never used Valium or any of it's equivalents, nor have many of those I know that are post-op. Its that trannie's form of sour grapes because they aren't really HBS.
Pamela
I was just writing about this today at beginninglife and my writings are here forum.beginninglifeforu...531a 145506
which is reposted here below:
lisagurl wrote on Sun, 23 November 2008 20:26
Quote:
whereas many males get sexually excited without a feeling of love.
There would be little need for Viagra if the majority of men could feel sexual without love.
Exactly. Men feel like they have to have an erection to enjoy sex while women can have it without such. I know i have had many periods of wetness prior to my transitioning. I prefered it that way. I didn't like or want the erection. Today if i am talking about a LTR with a potential soulmate i can find myself all wet with no female erection. (Yes it takes a long long time for me to trust someone and well thats because i was mislead many many times by other sisters {over the last 10 yrs} who wanted something sexual much more faster and they soon realized i wouldn't give them that.)
That is why when i got chemically castrated with hormones and i soon realized the physical problem with my body and how i feel internally i immediately went out and had my testes removed in the first 3 months of starting transitioning.
Yes there are many males who marry for love but what i spoke about was the basic male erection that drives many males sexually without a feeling of love but more a feeling of sexual desire. I also said that it changes over a persons age as we all know women seem to get more sexually active as they get older "in general" versus men losing it "in general" as they get older.
PERSONALLY SPEAKING:
Myself i suffered with too much of the roller coaster up and down sexual drive from early on after puberty. It always hurt too and i hated it. I knew that my sisters didn't suffer what i did and i knew i was like them on the down cycle of the rollercoaster ride. I knew what i felt i had to do before going on a date because of this high drive that made my life miserable. Many many men would love to have had my problem as you say because they take viagra to try to get it but i hated it and that is why i wanted it gone as soon as i knew it was possible. I also knew that this thinking was how my sisters felt in regards to picking a soulmate. They soon stopped looking for attractive males and soon realized that they wanted a so called nerd or just a nice guy or a male who had a low rollercoaster sexual drive. They wanted a guy for love and they needed a guy who had the ability to give love. As for myself i would be open to a male if they didn't want intercourse sex and just wanted to hug and hold and allow the mental aspect of intimacy to be their sexual drive. I know when i use to have those feelings after i did the dirty deed and was with my partner pre transitioning i had wetness that was so nice. That is why i had always felt myself to be a woman/lesbian in a males body pre transitioning. I also know and (more so now) how much more comfortable i feel and react with people in the female gender. These two things are why i have settled down with a wonderful feeling of self love.
It however, seems to me that many who transition won't talk in specific about themselves for some fear of being perceived as not falling into the TS stereotype. I know both of my 25 yr gender therapist's told me that NO TS ARE ALIKE and that we should never ever try to fit into a stereotype.
I would like to hear from others here about their PERSONAL differences and individuality and not just a generalized answer to all who transition.
Myself i can cry anytime (in front of anyone) now after transitioning and i couldn't before. It must be a chemical thing. I also have a need to try and clarify with long drawn out conversation the details of issues that are important to me whereas before i could only do this after relieving myself of that nasty sexual male drive pre transitioning and before i could only do it with a female and now i can do it with a male too which allows me to be me more easily. I also see now how say for instance Jonas who lives here doesn't like to hear a long drawn out personal sharing while judy his wife does. I see this with many males who are short and abrupt with regard to conversing personally. These are a few of the personal gender differences / things that allow me to be me more freely. However, Jonas is a kind male and yet he is very different than Judy.
I would love to hear from you all about your own personal views of gender differences in male and female and none of you should ever feel you have to fit into a stereotypical ideology because we all do transition for a variety of reasons and ideologies of what it is to be male or female.
Another part of me being a female lesbian (to me) is that i can do anything ( EX: walk through and shovel cow s**t etc etc whereas Judy won't do this i will) a male can do and i don't need to wear makeup and dress sexy to feel female as say some do who are attracted to males and well thats just a variety of being one of millions of varied women in transitioning or finished with transitioning.
EDITED TO ADD: Yes some hetero women do everything men do too
[Updated on: Mon, 24 November 2008 07:51]
"Facts are stubborn things". Right. So since you are genetically male, you are a man no matter what you do to your sexual organs. Your position is as absurd as that.
Let me ask you this. Suppose someone decided to have sexual reassignment surgery and had no gender dysphoria. That would not happen, but it is logically possible. Now, you would call that person a transsexual. And that makes no sense.
Your preachy attitude stinks as well.
Your argument is without merit; if a MALE chose to have SRS and wasn't a Transsexual or have HBS then he is a fetishistic type of person and since you seem to be poorly informed, it DOES happen and those people still identify as MALE. There is NO WAY I would ever call them "Transsexual".
Someone that choses to be Non-op is a "Transgenderist " and most of them prefer to claim that Gender is a "social construct" confusing "gender stereotypes" with male/female gender psychologically . People with HBS are DRIVEN to have SRS; it isn't a "choice", it is an absolute necessity. There are those that for health, monetary and familial obligations cannot have SRS or are prevented from obtaining it and that doesn't make them less HBS; it can and does cause them psychological problems and strong feelings of internal conflict and can lead to suicide.
You are right,Facts ARE stubborn things but the definition of a "genetic male" is nebulous given the wide variation XY and XXY combinations (some 46 of them if I recall correctly) But, then what determines your gender; is it your physical body or is it your brain, what makes you "you"? well, apparently it is the brain and someone with HBS has according to more and more research what is a female constructed brain and their are apparently genes on the DNA that controls whether you are female or male. So maybe it's not so simple as you would have it.
Finally, to separate out the "transgender" crowd which includes Crossdressers, shemales, female impersonators, and transgenderists is necessary as they want to garner all the benefits of being female in terms of restroom usage,dressing rooms and "non-discrimina tion while remaining and retaining their MALE appendages. IN a word, they are STILL male, physically and mentally.
My Opinion
Pamela
Quote:While one can disagree with my description, there is no "denigration" at all. In fact, I said "Let transsexuals be transsexuals" and "Transgenders can be themselves and garner respect for their good will if they cease trying to co-opt the space needed by transsexuals to fix their birth condition."
Quote:If, in fact, one is born transsexual (or, more currently - HBS), then the ultimate solution is surgical correction.
In this column, I simply said that if one has not yet had surgery, then one is pre-op(erative). It is unfortunate, but true that correction may not be within reach for a variety of reasons (health, accidents of geography, etc.). However, if one is transgender - a different state of being - then surgery is not necessary.
Quote:I am not the only one to say that. The phrase has a long and distinguished lineage. John Adams used it to great effect while defending erstwhile enemies against unjust charges born of mob rule: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence; nor is the law less stable than the fact..." Abraham Lincoln echoed Adams during the Civil War, etc.
Quote:You know nothing of my genetics, so I assume your statement is meant to be more general in nature. For more on the limitations imposed when reducing complex birth conditions to over-simplified statements about genetics, see my column Searching For The Genomic Treasure That Is Us (ts-si.org/.../...). Also, you can search this site for "genomics", "epigenomics", and "epigenetics" for more information.
Quote:It does happen that few disturbed indoviduals have had SRS even though they are not TS/HBS. The results have been disastrous.
Quote:Saying "preachy attitude" and 'stinks" reduces argument to a place very close by personal invective.
You have read my opinion column; it is not a news report. You disagree with a number of elements within the column. Isn't that enough?
I can't imagine what you all have been through, but I certainly admire where you wind up.
Anyway, you are the reason I came to understand in greater depth what you call the HBS people and the opportunities presented by your existence.
Please don't go away, you make a difference. Hysterical critics like the James Bond wannabe have nothing to offer.
You do.
Inbox: Transgender Fundamentalism (ts-si.org/.../...)
Lisa Jain Thompson
(04 Jan 2009)
people these days are REALLY underestimating the importance of genitalia in your life
because really it's the genitalia that make you who you are!
all these liberals transitioning only to their "gender" but not transitioning fully to their target "sex"...
I mean please!
I mean please! "
...
Why is not having a sex change operation "liberal?"
This liberal missed the memo.
Having said that, I don't get the part about "liberals" either.
I don't fit in with your lables. But I still find myself looking for one...
We have responded with a private message: please take heart and wait.
"That is the most important thing to me. I will gladly take a feminine looking and acting woman with a real penis over a woman that looks like a man in a dress and has a surgically altered vagina any day. I am a straight male and to the homosexual transsexual that sees herself as feminine that is what matters most, not what the "experts" think. Therefore, her argument is far more valid to those it counts the most, transwomen and the men who appreciate them."
So Philip prefers women with penises who look like hot bits of tottie, over transsexual women who had surgery but don't quite match up to his standards of female beuty. What are his tastes when it comes to a young transsexual women who has had surgery and who does fit his standards? would he choose her or the one with the penis? Something tells me he may go for the one with the penis. Curious.
We will have to wait and see. Although I recognize that I am biased and my mind is not immune from rationalization s, I also know that something happened to cause my transgenderism before any outside influence could possibly have influenced me (i.e., sexual, cultural, etc.). When I was old enough to recognize I was different, I felt transgenderism was a curse -- something to get rid of.
Typically, our users distinguish between transsexual and transgender. Some use the terms interchangeably .
As a person who lived in denial of their gender variance for many years, once I began accepting the way I am, I struggled to find an identity that suited me, the ambiguity was unsettling, almost by default I thought of myself as transsexual. After two years of therapy and much research and reading, I am most comfortable with the label genderqueer, (even if I am approaching 50 and male to female) I value both my feminine and masculine attributes and am quite content to be blend of the two genders. I really dislike the gender binary but that is not the issue here. Along the way I have made many friends and acquaintances several of whom are transsexual both pre and post op. Without question GRS is not an option for them.
Language has political ramifications and as much as I dislike them, labels are important in defining identities in today's world. By declaring oneself a non-op transsexual it does make the necessary medical procedures for transsexuals appear to be optional. One of my closest friends is post op less than a year and she needed the surgery to feel like a whole person it was not an option for her . The struggle to effect change requires clarity of terms so that those that do not understand why it is important can clearly grasp the importance of what you are advocating. How they respond is another matter but as a community we owe it to ourselves to not muddy the waters internally to the point that people outside the community can not understand the issues. In order to impact policy it requires terms be clearly defined. In that context I agree with your objection to the use of the term non-op transsexual.
I will say that some of your article reads a little elitist. It feels like you are portraying those of us with identities other than man, woman or medically transitioning transsexual are less valid. (maybe that is my own sensitivities showing through) One of the sad realities of the LGBTQ world is the pecking order of not being gay, trans or queer enough. It seems that sub societies regardless of altruistic intent reflect and often amplify the characteristics of the the larger parent society.
All the Best
Winnie
Quote:Far from it. Under no circumstances do I consider "identities other than man, woman or medically transitioning transsexual are less valid". While such identification is surely arguable, differing on their social efficiency is hardly elitist (which implies false superiority). In any case, I didn't address such concerns in this essay.
And please remember what I did say in this essay (first published in August 2006):
Quote:On that point we seem to agree.
Pamela
I admit my information comes from a strange place. I have been in the men's room often enough since transition to hear casual comments. That's what I make of it.
I am a straight guy and not interested in a preop or postop FtoM. Nothing personal, and I love you all.
How do any of you guys know?
Do you think we have our previous medical status tattoo'd on our arms?
Or perhaps you think we all wear some sort of colored triangle on clothes?
One of the constants in the universe is the arrogance of what passes for the male mind.
"How do you know you haven't been to bed with a post-op?
How do any of you guys know?"
...
Often they don't.
But we do.
Imagine you are a lesbian, so you should have a vagina like every woman, because lesbian girls like vaginas...not pennises.
If you keep your male genitalia, every man that get closer to you, must be feeling gay impulses instead of being heterosexually driven to you...and same occurs with heterosexual girls...they will be attracted to you because your male genitalia, that´s a rude fact, psicosexually or sexo-affectivel y talking.
Peace
1. A woman is a person with a vagina.
2. A penis is a penis no matter the surgery.
3. Therefore, transsexuals aren't women.
And then just deny number 2? Seems pretty hypocritical.
Have you ever met a woman who needed to dilate twice a day?
No I guess not!
You're still an XY individual, with no respect for transsexuals who doesn't buy into the binary nonsense.
You're just reinforcing the usual hierachy which we inherit from male socialization.
and oh, have you told your employer yet or are you still in school?
By the way, sex is not chromosomal -- at minimum, it is genomic.
Chromosomes organize genes, which consist of heritability data packaged into information units called genes. Both are subject to coding errors, adaptive modification, and regulation.
Ideology can not change biology.
Oh, and frequent dilation is necessary in the early stages (as it is with most all females who have vaginal surgery), but much less of an issue with the passage of time.
Oh, and SRS is profoundly functional; the cosmetic aspect is secondary.
Oh, well ...
But the men always think they know the most -- even about womanhood.
When I was 5 years old I began to wear my mothers clothes and make-up. When she found out, she took me to a therapist who told HER it was normal for "boys" my age and explained to ME that was unacceptable.
I accepted that as most 5 year olds would when hearing that from an adult and the seed was planted that this phallus between my legs makes me a boy and boys don't wear girls clothes or do girly things. I lived my entire childhood and teenage years being jealous of the girls around me. The way they got to act, dress, look. But that seed was planted long ago.
I feel as though your very sterile treatment of the issue trivializes me and everyone like me who believed the lies and watered the seeds that grew into weeds blocking the sunlight from the beautiful flowers of who we are inside.
Since you prefer scientific analysis over taking what people feel as gospel, let me argue both points with science. In physics there is a term that has been proven with particles of light that says, reality is the perception of the observer. A hungry woman walking down the street will notice every restaurant. A horny woman will notice every person they would desire sexual relations with. A wounded woman would notice the clinics and hospitals. Three women walking down the same street who have a completely different reality.
I therefore argue that what one feels...is. also, having SRS does not give one reproductive organs. It does not change ones chromosomes. THAT Ma'am is what defines sex. XX OR XY. So if I were to stick with your argument then by the scientific definition you are not a woman either. Just saying.
We need to band together instead of spewing hatred towards each other because of the minute differences in what we view as our own reality. You're hungry for Chinese and I'm hungry for Spanish, but we both hunger! Let's find a fusion restaurant and be happy WOMEN together!
Namaste to you.
I will not bore you with the obvious reductio ad absurdum to the "physics" argument about perception.
Oh well, anyone can say anything on the internet. You don't have to read a single study, or spend five minutes thinking critically, to claim superior knowledge.
Please I beg you...argue that.
I ask you this singular question. If you were to murder someone and happened to be injured in the process leaving your own blood behind, would the forensics scientists tell the police to look for a woman or man?
I will give you a trio of responses to your "singular," if rather macabre, question.
1. Of course, you have absolutely no idea what the answer to that question is, yourself. You have no idea who I am, or the characteristics of my blood. Nor is the question as simple as they make it look on TV. But why stop for the facts before the personal attack? Learning the facts is not why you have come to this science magazine, is it?
2. In any event, as interesting as the CSI stories apparently are, they are not particularly relevant to the science or legality of the question.
There is a legal answer, as well as a growing scientific understanding, regarding the meaning of sex. Chromosomes now have little relevance to the legal question in almost all jurisictions. Moreover, they are now known to have an extremely complicated relation to the scientific question.
So, sorry, but your surmise about a hypothetical policeman's view of the physiology of someone you do not even know does not outweigh the clarifying law or the evolving science. But perhaps personalizing the attack makes you feel a bit better?
3. One last thing. There have always been many, many women that do not have your preferred chromosome arrangement, and I am not speaking of women of transsexual history. (Were you even aware of that?) Are they now suddenly not women, because they do not possess something that correlates with their anatomical sex?
If most men have brown eyes, does that mean my blue eyed father is not a man?
I am done with this.
Please feel free to throw your big Latin phrases around all you like. It doesn't bother me at all. I have access to Google.
Another question...if you were in a plane wreck and all that was found was a finger and you had never been arrested for that murder you committed, hence no prints on file, would they label your finger john or Jane doe after doing the blood work?
If anyone is being attacked, its me by you. But that's ok. I'm used to bullying. I just never thought I'd experience it at the hands of someone in the same minute microcasm as myself, which by the way honey, admit it or not, you are.
Sorry sweetie, but UNLESS you have a monetary problem or a health problem, There just AINT no "Chicks with Dicks". If you are Transsexual, then you would have a strong never ending NEED for SRS to bring congruence between body and brain. Lacking that need, you are nothing other than a Transgender trying to crash into a place you don't belong.
Two of the arguments made by TGs that drift in and out here are beginning really to try my patience.
First, not only don't they read the science before lecturing us, they don't even read the immediately prior posts. Sharon just got through explaining the chromosomal fallacy a couple of comments above.
Second, the irony of the TG trolls' arguments is so think you can cut it with a knife. They say they are "women," despite having male genitals and living as men. But to them post-ops are men despite having female genitals and living as women, because of their confused assumptions about chromosomes.
So in other words, if you have a penis, you are a woman, at least if you say "honey a lot. But if you have a vagina you are a man, if that suits the person with the penis.
That all clear?
You probably know I have been one of the more TG supportive commentators here. But this stuff really is starting to get old.
He is obviously a male transgender wanna-be who is trolling this site for whatever pleasures he thought he could obtain.
His last post will be removed shortly. Sharon will be posting a more detailed explanation.
The troll arrived with preconceptions untempered by actually reading the column as written. Scarlet posted many questionable things, but concluded with disgusting personal invective that led to a permanent ban from this site.
There is background for this. In 2006, and many times before and since, in this column and elsewhere, I have written of how "transgenders can be themselves and garner respect for their good will if they cease trying to co-opt the space needed by transsexuals to fix their birth condition".
And yet, Scarlet deposited a variation on the same old rhetoric about banding together and implied dark motives to those people born transsexual who remain deeply skeptical of the "T" in the GLBT: "We need to band together instead of spewing hatred towards each other because of the minute differences in what we view as our own reality", says Scarlet.
I categorically reject any accusation of hatred -- the contrary evidence, my respect for -- and support of -- individual difference and rights, is all about you on this site.
A key point in the accusation derives from a post-modernist application of scientific indeterminancy to argue that personal perception is suzerain over repeatable and verifiable observation under standard condition.
The literary mapping of scientific principle to metaphor used as a sociopolitical weapon of rhetoric is an ignorant and tiresome exercise.
Worse, the amateur science intrudes once again regarding chromosomes and their combination with a redefinition of anatomical sex in conformance with cultish radFem ideology: "having SRS does not give one reproductive organs".
Always upping the ante, the current mantra from the breakaway radFem cult is that Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS) does not leave a person with reproductive potential. This is said despite the millions of natal women whose reproductive potential has been obviated or delayed. Stay tuned for the inevitable next steps in biomedicine.
Scarlet said ("It does not change ones chromosomes. THAT Ma'am is what defines sex. XX OR XY"). Sex is a much larger matter than the poster's constrained viewpoint. The following text repeats my earlier comment, cited by Diana, regarding chromosomes:
"Personally, I have never assumed that SRS changed my gender, nor does my column say that. It changed my sex and brought my innate gender and anatomical sex into alignment.
By the way, sex is not chromosomal -- at minimum, it is genomic.
Chromosomes organize genes, which consist of heritability data that packaged into information units called genes. Both are subject to coding errors, adaptive modification, and regulation.
Ideology can not change biology.
Oh, and frequent dilation is necessary in the early stages (as it is with most all females who have vaginal surgery), but much less of an issue with the passage of time.
Oh, and SRS is profoundly functional; the cosmetic aspect is secondary.
Oh, well ..."
Some things appear permanent if the medical protocols are followed early on.
Never listen to the cross-dressing fanboys. Their conclusions are driven by personal desire combined with a condescending distaste for women.
First of all, men can't take the dose of estrogen that we so called imposters do, and you just dismiss it completely.
Second, when you can't find a reasonable answer to some very valid questions, you start to exclude people, portraying an image of yourself as being hazzled by what you derogatoryly call men. who is it actually who claims womanhood for themselves and excludes people on grounds of "ownership". To me that is a very masculine statement.
Men have claimed ownership over women for thousands of years, much in the same manner that purist TS people state that they now own womanhood, because they hated their penis som much, and that that the absence of a penis is what makes them women.
Why does an inverted penis make you woman, the thing is still there...
Third why does other peoples reaction to the penis matters?
Aren't you own feeling of gender more important, then what men or women think.
A penis is not a stealth missile, it is simply a penis nothing more...
What you are creating is simply yet another male hierachy, a real woman has tolerance for women in all size and shapes, all you guys claims is ownership over a general idea of what constitutes a woman....
Let the genetic women decide, and start forming alliances instead of claiming some ridiculous concept of want YOU believe to be womanhood. You're simply claiming something you can't claim by the absence of a penis, get real!
Put Sally back into the closet troll, Monday will be another work day with your MALE buddies.
-- The column was published on 18 August 2006. Even then, in the middle of a struggle with the so-called non-op subterfuge, we continued to emphasize the positive. The probem is that transgender activists invaded our space, with consequences for our life and death. We merely argue for each their own.
-- I did not use the word "imposter" at all.
-- I specifically said Transgenders can be themselves and garner respect for their good will if they cease trying to co-opt the space needed by transsexuals to fix their birth condition.
-- This is about sex, not "womanhood", and the medical needs of people born transsexual who are on path to change their sex.
-- The "inverted penis" thing is so ignorant and typical of transvestite polemic: it distorts the actual medical reality.
-- The statement that we claim something we can't claim "by the absence of a penis" is typically male.
-- No female (like me and others) is defined by the absence of male genitals but the presence of female genitals.
-- By the way, there is not such thing as "genetic sex"; sex, at minimum, is genomic.
Sally, a final word: we do not allow trolling and fanboy provocation on this site. Do not come back.
I have always been a man, and I will always be a man. No one else can make that declaration for me, and no one can take it from me. I have been living as one for over two years (I finally came out of the closet at 38), even legally changing my name and gender designation on my state ID. Whether I ever get a penis or not will not nullify my masculinity. And saying I'm not a man is just drawing an arbitrary line between you and me. I'm not MALE, agreed, but I am a man. Growing up I picked up male behaviors and identified with male characters and disliked my feminine body and name. And saying that I need that piece of flesh between my legs to call myself one is nullifying the importance of my brain over my body. I'm not a walking crotch to be examined as a thing; I'm a human being. And whether I fit your narrow concept of transsexual or not does not change my mental and social construct of self-identifyin g as a man.
I support transgenders by dignifying their gender declaration, not denigrating them with biological predeterminatio n.
It IS well know that the "SRS" operations for FTM's is not very advanced,and is expensive, BUT that doesn't make you a "transgenderist " except by your own choice.
Are you aiming for top surgery? Do you hope to have the reproductive organs removed? Are you taking Testosterone?
I imagine either Lisa Jain or Sharon will have other words for you, BUT do please go look at ALL the information before running off in all directions.
Let me start by saying that TS-Si is not a transsexual "club"; moreover, the insults (shemale and tranny) have no place among mature people.
This particular column did not directly address FtM individuals but we have spoken out on this subject many times: our support for our brothers has been consistent, unstinting, and wholly sympathetic. We devote significant editorial space to explorations of sound research that applies to the FtM situation.
I think you could achieve a fuller and more accurate understanding of what we do here if you look around this website, then re-read my opinion columns in their entirety.
Then, all you have to do is ask.
My point in the second paragraph is: It is not my body that decided my gender, it was imprinted in my brain. And no amount of surgery (from none to full) will change my gender. I'm ALREADY a man. The surgery will change my SEX, but not my gender, and that is why the militant declaration of "If you have a penis, you are a man" rang false to me. If you have a penis, you are MALE; but if your brain says otherwise, you are not a MAN.
Someone actually said that transgendered persons shouldn't have the privileges of transsexuals - using gender appropriate bathrooms, pronouns, etc. Laws against discrimination that cover gender expression and identity would protect all of us. And I don't want there to be unnecessary social divides that create 'us vs. them' mentalities. I see that enough, already.
Transsexuality is a medical condition. One recognized as such by both the AMA and the APA and specifically in the case of MtFs one with a recognized and nearly 100% effective cure, surgical correction. If you lack the drive towards correction, you are not born transsexed by definition. By definition non-ops are NOT transsexed. The only way around this is to redefine every damn term which is what the transgender IDENTITY POLITICS crowd has been doing for the past ten or fifteen years. Put down the TG kool-aid hon and wake up and smell the coffee. The key words is correct the body to the maximum amount possible.......
Sorry V.Michael, BUT if the desire is not "strong enough" then you aren't and never were a Transsexual
Where have I even implied that "transsexual is 'more than' transgender"?
Who are you referring to as being "on the fast track to elitist and bigoted ..."?
Who used the terms shemale and tranny in your case?
Who is the "you" that uses "the same arguments against transgenders that the cisgendered [sic] use against anyone who is gender variant ..."
How does anything I have said add up to "you must be this committed to your gender or you shouldn't be allowed to declare it"?
How do you define the terms sex and gender?
- The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment
- The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years
- The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality
Please show me where it says I have to be willing to die for my surgery. By definition, transgenderists do not want surgery at all. I have finally discovered a reason to live and now I have to return to being suicidal to be called transsexual?
I am willing, and have, labelled myself transgendered whenever someone brought up my status since coming out. My psychiatrist believes I am transsexual. I am not about to outshout anybody, especially if they feel more entitled my diagnosis than my therapy team.
And Ms. Gaughan, I was mostly responding to the comment posters and repeating several of their statements. I understand from whence your article comes but non-op seems to be a label that the doctors are just as willing to use as the 'wannabes.' And, I did not appreciate the 'testosterone high' supposition. It suggested transgenders are doing their transitions for the fun of it, rather than taking life-altering steps to express their gender. The social stigmas attached to transitioning is bad enough without people questioning why transgenders don't go "all the way." You may have not, but the public often feels the need to question our crotches, and that just lends to the argument.
Let's face it Mike, "Transgnders" DON'T "transition" because they ARE transgenders and only playing at being the other gender; once fully transitioned, most Transsexuals DON'T face any "social stigmas"; I've been complete for over 8 years now and have ZERO, None , ZIP, NADA problems in ANY of my activities and life and THAT INCLUDES having refereed Soccer at the high school level for BOTH public high schools and Private "Christian" schools both pre and post-op.
Like I said before, go back to living your life of a lie OR look in the mirror and admit to yourself and your psychiatrist that you have been lieing about being anything BUT a crossdresser.
"Like I said before, go back to living your life of a lie OR look in the mirror and admit to yourself and your psychiatrist that you have been lieing about being anything BUT a crossdresser."
ok proof that there are being attacks on transgender people on this website. But if someone called you out on how you misspelled lying and told you something as rude as you've said to Michael they'd be banned.
And nowadays, I CAN look at myself at the mirror. I have come a long way from only thinking of it as a method of suicide. It is a triumph for me to be able to do so, and no amount of snarky condescension can take that away from me.
Pathological self-destructiv eness is indicative of a mental disorder. There's a different diagnosis for that: Gender Identity Disorder. It's in the DSM-IV-TR. "Significant clinical discomfort or impairment at work, social situations, or other important life areas." GID is not Transsexuality, but many transsexuals have GID.
I am tired of debating all these issues, so I will not respond in detail to your arguments. But I do wish to make the general point that some who have accomplished their primary objective of surgical correction fear that the ladder will be pulled up (or at least obstructed) to prevent others from climbing aboard. Their interests are not served by the confusion of those who require surgical correction of their sex with people who simply have a fluid gender presentation, a fetish, a titillating hobby, or a desire for attention.
(Please note that I do not include you in these latter groups.)
So anyway, there is a desire on the part of many that have achieved correction (or are on that path) to recognize the different interests of those that badly need correction, as compared to the desires of those that have other goals or have made other lifestyle choices. I believe the original article (from 2006!) on which you commented is in that spirit, and is not unduly critical of others.
Perhaps some of the comments in this thread and i other threads, including my own, have on occasion been more heated. But I would point out that many of the professed transgender commentators that have come through here have tended to be profane, hateful and profoundly insulting to those that have achieved correction. Often a person claiming to be TG will lead off with an insistence that post-corrected people necessarily retain their old sex (while inexplicbly simultaneously claiming that the non-op commentator has fully transitioned). Such provocations sometimes -- perhaps routinely -- are accompanied by grossly obscene speculation about the genitals of article authors or other commentators. You may see a little of that left in the thread above, but the worst TOS violations have been deleted.
So perhaps you can see why some of us are a bit sensitive about this.
Personally, I do not care very much about the terms, so long as the interests of those that need full surgical transition are protected, and the status of post-corrected individuals is respected. I never thought being a transsexual was so great, and I do not personally identify as trans-anything.
Best wishes and congratulations on your apparently successful transition.
P.S. The whole notion of GID, about which many of us are critical, should soon bite the dust with the adoption of DSM V.
We and YOU were NOT discussing those that cannot afford SRS or that cannot have it for a MEDICAL reason. You in the mean time find excuse after excuse why to NOT have the surgery and claiming to be a part of the Transgender crowd. Consider that I use it as an slur because I'm tired of all those like you claiming something that isn't correct and trying to equate Transgender with Transsexual. Having studied the subject for over 9 years, I'm pretty familiar with it.
Many do only "play" at being another gender, and then when its advantageous revert back to their birth gender
Sadly, I think YOU are the one in neeed of learning much more.
Non-Op Transsexual. Lets break this down:
1. Non Op - Opting to not have the operation
2. Transsexual - An individual whose mind/brain/psyc h doesn't match their physical gender.
3. Non Op Transsexual - An individual whose mind doesn't match their physical gender, and does not choose to have an operation to align them (for whatever reason).
4. Oxymoron - A figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradict ory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”
How is this an oxymoron? Thanks.
I will try again:
(1) Your definition of transsexual avoids the recognition of anatomical sex and substitutes physical gender.
This mixes up a scientific/medi cal description with sociopolitical considerations.
(2) You mixed up the individuals with legitimate reasons to defer surgery with those who choose to avoid surgery.
The former may be dealing with an array of issues, ranging from money through health, while the latter may not have reconciled themselves with the knowledge of being transsexual, or simply may be transgender.
* * * * *
I suggest you read the entire article and the attached comments. You will find more detailed answers to your assertions and questions.
It is in that context that I have to say Pamela's comments, while not my way, did not cross the line.
I've been around for a long time and belonged to a couple of groups, I understand people like Micheal quite well; There was no shouting, but then I don't believe in "beating around the bush" either. I've always found in both personal life and business life that being quite clear and plain spoken is best and eliminates any misunderstandin g of opinion and stance.
I've heard more than one like Micheal that "wishy-wash" and want to claim to be what they are not. Just my way
I have no problem if he wants to cross dress the rest of his life, just don't claim to be "transsexual" or demand the privileges of those that are TS and have had surgery.
Thanks Sharon for understanding.
There are no privileges that go with either definition. Transgendered individuals have to deal with a lot of hatred and distrust and transphobia. Whether they are transsexual or not, the greater public doesn't care, they only see deviance. As a personal choice, I don't stealth. I don't pretend to have always been perceived as male, it trivializes the struggle in realizing who I am and in becoming who I am. Other transgendered persons (especially youth) need a role model to help with the process of self-identifyin g and coming out, so I volunteer at a local LGBT center with a trans group. Good luck & good health to everyone on their journey.
No what you talked about were lady boys, cross-dressers and men and women born transsexuals, which I agree with you,you are not. Perhaps you are among the handful of true transgenders, men and women who prefer to keep their genitals intact but live in the gender role of their sex (which is fine by me).
Since transsexualism (not 100% proven, still many different theories on why it exists, but lies in the biological sector of why it exists. Saying you know it's exactly a medical condition is just not a true statement, but it's most agreed that it's roots are biological, and it is not a choice.) is a medical condition, then it should be given the same terms. Medical attention is always a choice, for some it's a necessity, for others it is an option. Not every single cancer patient wants to be put on a chemo, do the majority want/need it, yes. Now you would call someone crazy for choosing not to have it, but still, it's their choice. But if we view transsexualism as those who need to have surgery and hormones to feel congruent with their body and minds, then that is perfectly plausible. But transgender folks shouldn't be denied their gender identity or how they see their bodies simply because a medical choice they do not want to participate in. Saying that SRS is a 100% completely satisfying option, that transitioning is 100% satisfaction for every transwomen is unfortunately, just not true. Most do live happily afterward, leaving their trans history behind and living in their new life, some don't. But I wouldn't consider these folks men. It's not fair to them to call them men if they do not feel as if they are men, if their mind is not a man's mind, but a woman's mind, regardless of the option to receive surgery or not. Trying to disprove the "fakers" is a useless effort and totally not the point in accepting people of different gender identities then you.
Beyond your obvious misrepresentati on, I can see that you tried to move the discussion toward claims I did not make (e.g., 100% this or that). Your conflation of sex and gender, coupled with a misrepresentati on of what I wrote back in 2006, led to a total misrepresentati on of the content.
I won't even bother with your conflation of sex identity with such a notion as "gender identity", which lies at the heart of transgenderist propaganda.
Check your guidelines. I've seen so many hateful comments left by transexual people attacking transgender people. No one is trying to 'take your space'. I've seen a few people reply calmly and civilized to the bull[deleted] that's been thrown at them. I'll probably get blocked for the use of 'bull[deleted]' now.
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