I don't quite get this one Lisa. I went through many of the same hassle Karen went through in my old job with regards to the bathroom. I was almost fired from my old job 3 mnths before my SAS, when I was discovered using the Womens restroom in a part of the factory that was very seldom used. I was told to use the Men's room when I went full time in late 2000 OR ELSE, and wound up having a male visitor to the company I worked for, ask me what I was doing in the Mens Room.

Still, I don't get it Lisa. How did they know Keren's situation? It's not like my old job was, where everybody knew me before transition, so they knew what was going on. Unless she had been a regular attendee to the pool before transition, and everybody knew her then, she had a pretty good chance of being anonymous. So how did they know she was a pre-op? Did she blab it to the people who run the public pool? If so, then she blew it. She could have stayed anonymous if she told nobody, and as a result, never went through the hassles being experienced now. I learned the hard way early on when I went full time, to shut my mouth - it was nobody's business what I was doing. I wasn't hurting anybody.

There is also the secondary issue that contributes to this problem - no SAS. Yes Karen may very well be one of those few who really is medically not up to having SAS. But, she went on hormones in 2000. She was working as an electrician. Electricians make good money. So, why didn't she have the surgery before her strokes in 2003 or 2004? Being an electrician at the time, she probably would have had enough money to afford it. I've know a few with the cash to do SAS in a relatively short amount of time (as in less than 4 years - the average seems to be a bout 5 years after the beginning of transition), who didn't have SAS in that time period. It makes you wonder if they really have HBS, or aren't one of the so called 'non-ops". Throw in the multiple marriages (I avoided marriage like the plague, and datying for that matter), and I kind of wonder if Karen really has HBS, or is just a TG in a bad situation.

I wonder. Karen is in a bad situation. I've been there with regards to some of her experiences at the pool. It's no fun. Still, I can't help but wonder if some of this situation is because of mistakes she made and actions she took.

Just my 2 cents worth, and not being mean spirited,
Ellen

Based on the best available evidence and the content of numerous newspaper articles, I found no indication for the supposition that Ms. Daemons was transgendered and not an HBS woman. I choose the simplest explanation for the facts as they were presented without speculative invention or elaboration. If she is transgendered, little changes from what I wrote other than the nomenclature: she is still on hormones, still has a letter from an Endo, and still is being treated poorly by city of Cleveland recreation department.

TS-Si is attempting to contact Ms. Daemons directly. If we are successful, we hope to conduct a Q & A with her.

Here in this tragic narrative we have condensed very nearly the entire dilemmas that face us as supporters of HBS and as reasonable and fair minded compassionate women. The primary issue that faces me as I write this response is whether or not I accept that this person is in fact HBS with two marriages and three children behind her it stretches my acceptance of the ?attempting to conform to expectations? argument beyond my limits.

However, that issue behind us let me turn to treating the issue as one of ?transgender? and not HBS and please lets leave the HBS issue for a quite separate debate. Local authorities receive complaints about all manner of issues and from many different and disparate sections of various pressure groups all over the world. They do not always act or react to those complaints. In the case of our subject they have chosen to react. Karen Deamons has a number of factors working against her. I suspect that verbal communication may be a challenge. Her appearance gender issues to one side will almost certainly be odd and anyone in a wheelchair is unfortunately confronting to able bodied and fit people. In short aesthetically it sounds like Karen Deamons has little going for her.

Those in authority have a difficult issue with which they have to face and work out in a way that keeps everyone happy. Their budget, their other patrons, pressure groups from many different directions all of whom have a different axe to grind; and in the middle and probably the one on whom the weight of the various groups will ultimately fall will be the eventual loser; Deamons herself. One might think that we have to ask ourselves, is that fair, irrespective of whether or not Deamons is a person affected by HBS and therefore of relevance to us. Speaking as a woman who may possibly find herself in the position of facing issues like this from the other side when no-one is aware that I share a somewhat similar narrative as Deamons, I have to say that my instinct like those women who complained, would be to ask that Deamons was found somewhere to discreetly go about her business unhindered and with her dignity preserved but provided with privacy for herself and for other patrons. Any civilised and caring compassionate society should make those arrangements willingly and without anyone having to recourse to the legal profession. But then the society concerned cannot even chose its political leaders without recourse to law! So what chance do the likes of poor Karen Deamons stand within such a society? What pains me is that the majority of so called civilised nations are not much different to the USA in the way defenceless individuals are treated.

On the surface it looks like Karen has done her best to avoid confrontation and be discreet. How hard can it be to find a safe spot for Karen to use the facilities to which she is entitled. The officials concerned are just not trying and that is my take on this. HBS or transgender Karen Deamons needs support from the community not the shabby self righteous and spiteful rejection she has encountered thus far.

HBS or transgender it makes no difference anymore. The public have been made aware that men are out there in significant numbers, posing as women, lurking in their private spaces and demanding the right to be there. Thats how the public see it once someone is "suspected" of being a little right of center. We can thank our wonderful trans activists and the LGB for "educating" the public to the point of feeling like there are more tranny's behind the closed doors than there are red's under the bed. This is the sum of their work, their yelling and screaming for "inclusion", their fight for the right to present however they feel like presenting on any given day, at any given time and in any given place. The backlash will hurt us all, get some of us outcast, some of us killed.

Some of us are starting to fight back. Please sign the petition to remove the umbrella use of the term "transgender" to cover women of transsexual/intersexed history who find such use demeaning of their right to self identify and womanhood.

Sponsored by: Rev. Mother Cathryn Platine

http://tgnonsense.wordpress.com/

http://www.thepetitionsite.com...n-umbrella

For the record, TS-Si neither endorses nor condemns the above referenced petition. The opinion of commentors is theirs and theirs alone. TS-Si remains neutral on whether anyone should sign such a petition even as we wonder who might read such a petition who would have the magical authority to change terminology that has entered the common vocabulary.

When I first read this in the news it seemed more a transgender tale of woe than it being about a person born with HBS. Deamons also seems much like the tg's who at the age of 10,11 or 12 in conjunction with the onset of puberty become aware of their gender associated issues which often include dressing up for sexual arousal. That has nothing to do with HBS. HBS born know long before the onset of puberty their brain and body didn't match. It is part of their inborn nature and not a reaction to stimuli!

May I point out that if one had a TSI or a stroke, which I experienced, immediately the doctors would ask what meds you were on and especially asked if on any hrt's and if so be taken off them and not allowed back on unless no permanent damage had been observed and there was a limited threat of another stroke. It seems that does not fit in with Deamons circumstance. And I personally knew of some who had been on female hormones for years and although probably became sterile would in time after discontinuing the hormones be able to once again get erections. After all the same nerves that stimulate the penis also stimulate the clitoris.

Let us not play the game of those who would like to add HBS to the transgender label as a sub-set much the same as has been done to transsexual. To assume this person might be HBS born when all the indicators lean toward him being tg is a big mistake.

Diane

Seems Charles (the transvestite) Prince had the magical power to advance the term transgender so why should it be different for those of us born HBS to have our term used to explain what and who we really are. I signed the petition and will sign any other one like it that comes my way.
Diane

I am also uncomfortable being lumped with many so-called "transgenders," but I am nearly flummoxed that anyone's first reaction to this terrible tale of cruelty, unfairness and government-enforced private bigotry would be to question Ms. Deamons's bona fides. She sounds real to me, but even if she were not, the City's treatment of her would be reprehensible. Regardless of the appropriate nomenclature in her case, she deserves to be treated with human dignity.

I don't get it either. What exactly is this persons problem. It looks to me like a typical TG claim for special privilidge. This story adds a whole new meaning to the concept of HBS. Now it means "Heart Breaking Story." I know you like being provocative, Lisa. But really!You've done a good job of putting the TG case for access to women's space. Now let's see you out the case against it. If this individual applied for membership to HBS-NZ, He would not be accepted...at least not on the basis of this story.

The facts, as known at this time, are as I wrote them down in the article. I see nothing to indicate that Deamons is transgendered in the article -- there are indications that she is transsexual (her Endo even wrote her a carry letter). Everyone seems to be bringing their own preconceptions and assumptions to the article.

What makes her transgendered and not HBS?

-- That she waited until later in life to begin transition? Then I too am not HBS.

-- That she was married and fathered children? Then I too am not HBS.

-- Or is it that she married more than once? Then many of us are not HBS. This isn't the Catholic Church.

-- Or is it that she says she wasn't sure who she was until she was 10 or 11. We don't know her background, her family life, the religion in which she was raised, her education, her economic status. We don't even no if she was of average intelligence, or smarter or less smarter than the rest of us. None of us have walked in her shoes. Early knowledge that one is HBS is only ONE of the benchmarks and who is to say whether that benchmark is at 5 or 10? Is some who knew at 3 years of age more HBS than someone who only knew at 5?
I don't remember there being some sort of purity test involved with being HBS. Should we set up a high council to issue HBS licenses to those we approve so we can separate them from the rabble and chaff?

-- Perhaps the problem is that Deamons may be a minority. She's from the right part of Cleveland. But I don't remember being caucasian or middle class as being a diagnostic for true HBS. If being 100% pure and white is criteria, then I, with my greasy Sicilian blood am certainly not HBS.

-- Perhaps it is the wheel chair Deamon's needs. Then I too am not HBS with my gimpy leg a reminder of having polio when I was three.

-- Or may she was suppose to have predicted the strokes that crippled her a few years into transition, like it was her fault, God's punishment for something she did that she is crippled and lost the well paying job that would have enabled her to have SRS.

This whole thread smacks of elitism, a desire to keep the riff-raff out and HBS an exclusive club with a secret handshake.

Perhaps the social right is correct and we are all crazy.

I believe that a person is innocent until proven otherwise. She identifies as transsexual, her endo indicates she is transsexual. Until I know more about the facts on the ground, I will accept Deamons at her word.

This whole discussion has the lingering smell of a lynch mob.

I really do not think that it is right that we should be debating whether Karen Deamons is HBS or not as far as I know not one of us have ever met Karen. For me the main issue is the disgraceful treatment of a vulnerable person who deserves better treatment from society. My heart goes out to her. Shame on you all. My apologies to you Lisa if anything I have said has caused offence. Diagnosis of HBS is a medical issue in my view and this scenario illustrates just how difficult that diagnosis is.

I can see numerous reasons why Karen may have been "outed". Perhaps she didn't "tuck" as well as she thought she had, maybe there was a "5 O'clock" shadow, maybe she answered a question in a deep bass voice. I keeep thinking about the Lorry drivers in frocks in the pubs on Canal Street in Manchester, UK with their burly shoulders, hairy arms, 5 O'clock shawdows and deep voices yelling "hey mate, have another pint ! I'm sure this isn't the case with Karen. Probably what is needed is a law suit filed against the city, but do keep in mind that this is taking place in CLeveland, Ohio; a state that sees no need to change a Birth Certificate in any way shape or form no matter what; and I think that says it all.

Pamela

Pamela and others: FYI, the subject of what Ohio does comes up from time to time. I was born and grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. You said:

... keep in mind that this is taking place in CLeveland, Ohio; a state that sees no need to change a Birth Certificate in any way shape or form no matter what ...

The State of Ohio issued me an "amendment" to my original birth certificate. While the original BC is unaltered, the amendment has the force of law and regulation. It shows my corrected data and carries an official stamp.It was good enough for all of my ensuing paperwork changes (driver's license, social security, and so forth).

Keep in mind that the Ohio problem is largely one of regulation. The law is silent on much of this. All I did was find out what could be done without mking a big public deal out of it.

For now, the amendment process is all we have. We know that a number of people are working to get statutory clarification and a set of fair procedures for name and sex change on the original BC. However, the climate there is not favorable until the stained opponents are rinsed out of the Ohio laundry.

I read the article this morning over coffee. I do some of my best thinking listening to the Power Hour and reading what is fresh on the web that interests me.

No matter what way you take the limited facts this story presents you cannot on any rational level make a decision as to Karen's status. There just isn't enough detailed information.

I knew one Pre-op who wouldn't stop using hormones even after a stroke. It is easy for us who are Post-transition to sit back and pass judgment on someone who may not be able to stand the smell of the testosterone her body gives off without doing something to ease the odor and eas her tortured mind. How many of us have known people or said ourselves "transition or die"? It's easy when your cloths fit right your body odor smalls feminine and your birth certificate is in agreement with your corrected body.

It is far too easy to sit in judgment of someone you have never seen in person, talked to on the phone or seen interact with others in public.

As far as the petition goes, I haven't made up my mind as it doesn't effect me. My birth defect is corrected and i am a little more cautious about the battles i chose to fight these days.

Take Care

I think this may be my first post here but I have to say that I am surprised and dismayed with the tone of many of the responses so far. Karen,(that's her name) seems to have been judged and found wanting but by whom? Unless we are qualified to do so, we should take care in our diagnoses of others. ...In any case I think the general reaction to Karen's plight is heartless and ,to me, quite upsetting. Whatever else she may be she is a human being and entitled to the dignity and justce we all expect, or is justice and compassion dependant upon the credibility of one's claim to suffer or survive HBS? The lack of humanity displayed here does you no credit and , to me advances the itegrity of HBS not one jot

Kaye Barrie

The soul would have no rainbow
Had the eyes no tears

(John Vance cheney)

is aimed specifically at GLAAD to stop promoting the term as inclusive. It is GLAAD that is cited as the "authority" on this and break the usage there and that will go a long way to exposing this is considered demeaning and insulting. I choose the target most carefully.

it would appear that Karen is a medical model transsexual. As such, if she is following the SOC to the best of her ability then she is under recognized treatment for a recognized condition and part of that treatment is living her life in the appropriate gender role. The Tronetti v TLC Healthcare case would be directly on point. You cannot discriminate against someone who is following a medical treatment modality for a known medical condition. That she is under the care of an endo would be enough to establish this.

We cannot abandon our pre op sisters and maintain the position we always were women, it's that simple. The problem currently is the TGs try to misuse that.

Every reputable surgeon demands a letter of clearance from a recognised mental health specialist. I was required to obtain one back in 1972 no matter who my doctors were who treated me and prescribed hormones.

Was Karen preparing for surgery before suffering the stroke or was she simply another on a long list of transgender who take hormones as an extension of their mimicry? I don't know the answer and since the article seemed to be rather vague why I might ask might some assume she is HBS in the first place?
And yes there is a standard for the diagnosis of HBS and it is rather simple: Was the child aware of a conflict between brain sex and body sex before puberty or did he or she only become aware of a gender confusion after the arrival of puberty? That is the baseline question and it has nothing to do with sexual behavior afterwards.
I am not unsympathetic toward anyone who is actually a pre-op and their needs as required under the RLE standards but I am somewhat suspicious if a person is taking hormones for years without benefit of a psychological diagnosis and nothing in the record available shows any preparation or plan to have surgery. The emphasis of the storyline seems to be the manner of dress and the taking of hormones and if that is all there is then what might be different with this particular person than that of the transvestite who sued the New York City Transit Authority so he could use the women's bathroom in a public train station when he dressed in female clothing.
I doubt Karen will prevail in a court of law without more definitive support than simply an endocrinologists permission letter.

I have already tried to make this point once, so this will be my last attempt.

Can you imagine what this terrible thread of comments would seem to someone not in our little "club?" The author spins a story of profoundly unfair public treatment of someone that cannot conceivably pose a realistic threat or offense to anyone using the facilities, and who professes (with at least SOME basis) to have the same birth condition as many of us.

So, then, what is our reaction? Sympathy? Condemnation for the city's absurdly nasty and arbitrary treatment? Inquiry as to whether we can help?

Of course not!! Instead we engage in this incredibly nit-picky, "inside baseball" inquisition into whether Ms. Deamons is exactly like us, with the (mostly) unspoken assumption that, if not, she deserves nothing but contempt.

In this thread, we play into the hands of those that consider us exclusionary and elitist. Not only Ms. Deamons, but the article, the site, and our community deserve better.

We at TS-Si are impressed by the intelligence and good will of our visitors, numbering now into many thousands on a daily basis.

As you know, we receive a large number of comments through private channels; a smaller - but significant - number uses our public commenting facilities. Very often these two groups express sentiments at odds with each other (or at least overlap).

This case is different.

Global Warning, the opinion column by Lisa Jain Thompson appears here on a regular basis. We can almost always count on some sort of reaction. However, the comments headed to a new place with publication of Lisa's recent column, Doing It Pretty Up And Walking Good: A Pre-op in Cleveland.

The column was a rather dry and objective survey of the dillema faced by an individual in Cleveland, Ohio. Most people reacted with a mixture of compassion and bewilderment, wondering what can be done to help her out and mitigate the inept response of Cleveland's Department of recreation. For a while there we became a kind of private clearing house. Notably, we received a lot of private comment from people in wheelchairs (mostly natal) who run up against the very same lack of understanding and accomodation.

Even though the reporter from the Plain Dealer identified the person as "transsexual" (confirmed to TS-Si by several of our private sources), some of the comments that came in sounded like muttering villagers preparing to storm the castle.

Some have responded with accusations not supported by the news reports. This led, in turn, to the application of some form of litmus test to determine whether the person in question is worthy of further consideration in HBS-terms.

This kind of self-appointed gatekeeping can have disastrous consequences.

I was born with the HBS birth condition and knew at a very early age. I did not have the conceptual framework or vocabulary to properly articulate the presence of my condition to others, except to say "I am Dale Evans, not Roy!" And I said that from a hospital bed when I was 3 1/2 years old!

I felt as much as I could think about it: in any case, I knew.

People vary in their intelligence, analytical properties, educational attainments, and response to cultural constraints. For some, nothing is truly real unless it can be properly named, filed, approved, and articulated. So? They remember when the pieces fell together. As Lisa said in her column ... later than many, earlier than some others.

Then there is the matter of transition. Karen transitioned ... later than many, earlier than some others. So? Perhaps the person involved had tasks and/or confusions in life that are knowable to many, a mystery to others.

These are just a couple of examples that demonstrate the perils of definition that haunt the boundaries of our assumptions.

This comment thread has had the unexpected effect of airing out our own soiled HBS laundry. Contained within it are the seeds of either increased enlightment or self-destruction.

The choice is ours.

I don't find the comments stated on this thread to be embarrassing in any way. Nor do I find it to be a lynch mob. Yes there is two camps here, those that seem to think that Ms. Deamons may be transgender and therefore outside what some of us have titled "the club", and those that are willing to give Ms. Deamons the benefit of the doubt that she is HBS/Transsexual that simply could not fully transition due to circumstances beyond her control.

http://tgnonsense.wordpress.com/

The bigger picture is that we either agree with the transgender community in their assessment that we are all on a spectrum of gender, from the crossdresser to the classic post operative transsexual/hbs - OR - we have no choice than to set ourselves apart and question the validity and motives of those that we allow entry.

It would seem to me that by coining the term "HBS" to differentiate ourselves from the transgender community, we have already decided to opt for the latter. We can't have our cake and eat it. Our actions have already played into the hands of those that consider us exclusionary and elitist and many of us have suffered the slings and arrows already. For us to now turn face and offer sympathy to any individual that may or may not be a member of this so called "club", simply makes us all look hypocritical. Either stand your ground or drop the "HBS" term and join the community. Your choice.

This is not a club or some secret society like the ones all the Widow's Son's belong to.

As i understand it this is a group of people who do not identify with the transgender construct as a rationalization for our need to do what it is that we do.

With that said where is your qualifications that entitle you to use the term HBS as a descriptor?

I would ask everyone else here who is not willing to ether stand neutral on the who or what Ms Daemons is or give Ms Daemons the benefit of the doubt to please offer up proof that you are not transgender.

Being judgmental is the fastest way to loose credibility.
It has been suggested that what is sitting in front of us is an opportunity to grow and gain wisdom, and to set an example that is supportive of our stand that we are not like the TG?s. That is not possible if people sit in judgment, we then lower ourselves to the tact and moral ground used by the GLBT.

Perhaps it?s time to take pause and consider the direction some are taking this thread in.

I never said it was a club. I said that some have stated it was a club.

I don't identify as HBS, I am classic Transsexual.

23 years post op

31 years full time

and you?

28 years full time and due to commitments and loss of income due to disability coming up on 5 years post-op.
I don?t identify as Trans-Anything, I had a birth defect and knew it since I was three. When I was four I told my mother and grandmother I would grow up to be a woman just like then. That is when my grandmother smiled and the beatings from my parents stated.

Life is hard isn?t it, I finished my transition with little eyesight a part time job and a disability pension. I flew to Thailand by myself and had the birth defect taken care of.

So while I can relate to Miss Daemons position I haven?t walked one foot in her shoes and won?t judge her based on her situation. When you start mixing HBS with handicaps all bets are off. Had I not been borne blind with my talent I would had my corrective surgery shortly after high school about the time you did.

People deserve to have the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.

Questioning things is quite alright, this is part of the learning process....

Making proclamations that someone is or is not part of some group without getting to know them is wrong and will ruin reputations.

Good for you on having a long and wonderful life with the birth defect corrected. It's nice to have a body that feels like it belongs to you.

Take care

I am now 36 years post up and never really lived full time but for a very short time before that since I was rather androgynous in appearance and clothing was not my connection to inner self. I just knew that I was born wrong from my earliest memories. It is as simple as that. No history that would define me as trans anything but for the diagnosis of Dr Benjamin and Dr Ihlenfeld his associate.

Yes, HBS is a distinct term and rightly so.

I will never allow myself to be placed under an umbrella label shared with those who believe my gender is much like their own: flexible, subject to urges, unexplainable, evasive, either/or, or simply an effort to not be clearly defined but to mask what they might really be and feel. I only know that I am a female both mentally and physically; I was certified as such by the then required exam in a county hospital after my surgery. No wiggle room there for me and I am proud to exclaim to the world that I have no doubts about who and what I am and definitely who I am not.

I don't accept the term transgender to apply to me and that I will voice to anyone who might listen. I don't even feel comfortable with transsexual since that has become a term too often associated with porn. I was a patient of Dr Benjamin and am proud to associate his name with the condition I was diagnosed as...primary transsexual. I was never considered then as transgender since only those at that time who were actual transvestites used it to mask and protect themselves from other demeaning names often directed at them when they were exposed. Transgender seemed to give them a medical legitimacy although it baffles me how it does that.
All too often many now in the trans communities are trying their best to include HBS under the trans umbrella as simply one of the elements. If that is to your satisfaction then might I suggest that you are not HBS. HBS is an explanation of those who knew before puberty that they were 'different'. It is not a term that applies to those who feel they have 'grown' into it or those who became aware of their confused gender identity only after the arousal of puberty. It simply explains the connection to our birth which we very soon became very much aware of.
And yes we might be called elitist and is it any wonder. We are those who took the final steps to correct our birth condition and those who might fantasise about doing just that feel threatened by those who acted in response to a very clear inner drive in comparison to themselves as something other. They created the ladder of succession in their own minds; we had nothing to do with that but we are seen as the imaginary top rung and unattainable so therefore somehow elitists. I am not an elitist unless every woman on this planet is an elitist. I am distinct for I have risked my life to be whole. In that I am proud and more-so because it allowed me to be a very proud woman and not some shadowy figure hiding under an ambiguous label.
Diane

You come up with a term(HBS) that has the full intention of setting yourself apart from others in a group and then you say it's not fair to judge other's !

There are countless articles on TS-SI that are judgemental of all things transgender and plenty of comments that reflect elitism; and the setting apart of; and the differences between; then along comes one case where an individual that could as easily be HBS as they could be transgender and you fall all over yourselves to call for compassion and understanding and being non-judgemental.

For the record there are plenty of Ms. Daemons out there with similar hard luck stories. They range the gammut from full time crossdressers to paraplegics and most of them will state emphatically that they are women, always have been and have known since they were a child. They just never acted on it till they saw everyone else doing it.

Are they HBS or are they transgender? Who knows... who really cares?

If your going to set yourselves apart then at least do so with conviction and own up to the fact that by doing so, you have already decided to judge others.

Hi, perhaps some clarification is in order. Leigh, you made some important assertions. Let address a few that seem relevant to TS-Si.

You come up with a term(HBS) that has the full intention of setting yourself apart from others in a group and then you say it's not fair to judge other's !

I am not sure who you mean by "you". Anyway, TS-Si did not invent the term HBS. We use it for the reasons outlined in our editorial, Facts of Life: Changing Our Name And Refocusing Our Mission.
http://ts-si.org/content/view/2378/995/

The main point is to addres the specific medical needs of individuals who are in transition toward corrective surgery. Please remember: TS-Si is Dedicated to the acceptance, medical treatment, & legal protection of individuals in the process of correcting the misalignment of their anatomical sex, & supporting their transition into society.

The specific term, HBS, is enormously descriptive and suits our mission. When our birth condition reaches full recognition by the scientific and medical community, a different term may well be used.

We do not use the term to set us apart but to focus attention. Plese let me remind you that Big "T" transgeders have always objected to this focus as it seems exclusive to them. There are - and have been - all sorts of organizations and web sites that address issues of interest to transgenders. Yet, the TS-Si principals and supporters have been opposed for years for simply stressing the need for this focused attention.

There is a local group in the Metro Washington, DC area that served the needs of what were termed as "transsexuals" for many years. It was one of the oldest continously operating groups of its kind in the US. Both Lisa Jain Thompson and I participated in that group very early on in our transitions until an influx of male cross-dressers and transvestities overwhelmed it. To this day, Lisa and I are barred from participation for our perceived views. We can't even post on the mailing list - our posts are summarily deleted.

There are countless articles on TS-SI that are judgemental of all things transgender ...

I assume you mean some of the opinion articles. Activists hardly ever comment on the science articles and other resources.

The authors have opinions of all kinds that may or may not align with TS-Si policy. We are very open to spirited debate if it is civil and maintains mutual respect. Anyway, TS-Si.org is a website. As important (and popular) as it is, the website is just one of our projects.

By the way, we have openly solicited columns from leaders of the transgender movement. The responses have ranged from incoherent and pornographic rants to no response at all.

As for "all things transgender". I speak for TS-Si. Our organizational opposition to the Transgender umbrella is based on socio-political differences. There is nothing personal about it. We happen to know a number of people who consider themselves transgendered - but not HBS. That is fine with us. Our focus lies elsewhere.

... and plenty of comments that reflect elitism; and the setting apart of; and the differences between; ...

There are necessary distinctions in life that make a difference. Reasonable people can disagree on what they are and what they mean. Comments to our articles and (clearly labeled) opinion columns reflect the concerns and opinions of some of our visitors. Such visitor comments are always welcome, provided they do not violate out "Terms of Use".


Ms. Sharon Sinead Gaughan
TS-Si VP & Executive Director
Managing Editor, TS-Si.org
http://www.ts-si.org

Sorry, but I'm not "judgemental" about the Transgender, I'm just not one. I know several people that would fall into that classification and include them in my circle of friends. They are Cross Dressers and that is their choice. I am no longer "transexual" as my GRS corrected that condition which we are now calling HBS. If someone is post-op and still wishes to be a "transgender" or some so called "third sex", that's their choice but don't include me in that group or complain when I reject that label. Just as they have the right to be included in that umbrella term, I also have the right to reject being labeled in that fashion.
Now with the case in discussion, the person apparently only has a letter from a Medical Doctor, not a Therapist; in a locker room situation involving nudity or changing clothes, I would be uncomfortable having a "transgender" or cross dresser present no mater how they dress and whether or not THEY change in a toilet stall if they then enter the area where I and other women openly change clothes. A restroom is a different situation as there are enclosed stalls and as long as they "sit to pee" and their feet face the right way I don't care. Elitetist; No just, modest.
Pamela

I am in complete agreement on all your points.
There must be boundaries.

Society sets these boundaries so man and women can feel safe in their own spaces.

Modesty is a virtue.

Take care

I am in total agreement with Pamela.

It is also not an issue of being an elitist as some have tried to tag upon me and others but the simple fact that when I am in a woman's locker room or coming out of the shower I might be nude or in the act of undress, no different than any other woman in that area. Why should any of us have to permit someone of the opposite sex, no matter how they might present, to intrude upon us?

May I also point out that at the time of my transition I was told by my doctors not to place myself in an awkward position which might bring upon myself embarrassment or exposure. Since when does that not include a locker room or a public shower?

And, by the way, I am not a 'trans' anything. Been there, done that! I am simply a woman who was born with a condition now widely accepted as Harry Benjamin Syndrome, an intersex anomaly.

Diane HarryBenjaminSyndrome.org

?For the record, TS-Si neither endorses nor condemns the above referenced petition. The opinion of commenters is theirs and theirs alone. TS-Si remains neutral on whether anyone should sign such a petition even as we wonder who might read such a petition who would have the magical authority to change terminology that has entered the common vocabulary.?

I agree with Leigh?what a bunch of hypocrites.

All you guys spout is anti transgender this, anti transgender that?but Cathryn Platine starts a petition to present to GLADD, or the other organizations in an effort to organize and all you can do is poo poo it with some holier than thou shoot down. Instead of pushing to the so-called ?thousands? of daily viewers, you in essence do NOT support it.

What a joke?I know you are both gay?it seems to me you like the GLBT. If you two were REALLY interested in the destroying the transgender construct you would support the petition, not offer up a lame condescending slam of it.

SIGN THE PETITION

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/transgender-is-not-an-umbrella

You wrote that as if there were something socially or morally wrong with being gay.

-- If that is the case, you can go take a flying leap, patting yourself smugly on your back as you fall.

If you read the various banners and texts at TS-Si you would understand that TS-Si is a non-profit organization that does not take political positions (and cannot without jeopardizing our non-profit status). As such, we expressedly took no position on the petition (making sure it was known that we neither endorsed it or opposed it). Our focus is on science, research, and working to change government policies and laws that apply to HBS men and women.

The logistics of such a petition is unwieldy. I find it doubtful that 10,000 HBS men and women will publicly identify themselves. 10,000 would seem the minimum number to effect the policies of the estimated 30 MILLION gays and lesbians in the United States and the hundreds of thousand transenders.

Even in the safety of the TS-Si website, the majority of our HBS correspondents post under a pseudonym, not their real names. A petition to be effective must be verifiable and that means legal names must be signed.

BTW what are your feelings towards bi-sexuals?

Your statement seems to imply that if we are not for a particular action, we must be against the subject of said action. Frankly, I find the assertion usupported by either logic or precendent.

Speaking for TS-Si, our position regarding GLBT is very clear: we are opposed to our inclusion under the transgender "T".

We are not critical of individual people who feel comfortable with self-identifying in that manner. However, we oppose the actions of Transgender activists who - wrongly, in our view - represent HBS people without their consent and misinform both the public and our political leadership.

Our opposition is supported by evidence and deeply felt in its expression. We avoid meaningless confrontation and work hard in the trenches to achieve our organizational goals: we are:

Dedicated to the acceptance, medical treatment, & legal protection of individuals in the process of correcting the misalignment of their anatomical sex, & supporting their transition into society.

By "you two" I assume you mean Lisa Thompson and myself. We are both bisexual females who happen to be in a committed relationship that happens to be of the same-sex variety. That hardly constitutes de facto evidence that either of us "like" the GLBT construct. We do not.

Ad hominems avail us nothing. We are both open to reasonable discussion on the topic; we are not open to heated exchanges that do not advance understanding. I did a quick poll of the other TS-Si participants (heterosexual, by the way) and found they feel the same way.

Lisa Thompson gave her reasons for not signing Cathryn's petition. In turn, you recorded your reaction. Here are my personal views of the petition and my personal reasons for not signing it.

-- The petition is just fine with me and I support everyone's right to sign or not sign. I see it as a potentially good move toward consolidating a concerned demographic into a common cause.

-- The petition can have the effect of alerting certain organizations of their need to reform their policies. This could have a 3rd-tier influence on those who they seek to influence, but that remains to be seen.

-- I personally shy away from petitions and like; decades of experience suggests to me that they accomplish little. Others may differ in their views - I understand that.

-- There should be room for a variety of approaches. Hopefully, we work toward common goals, but that does not mean we must use common means toward that end.

-- In any case, when I sit down with our contacts they depend on my arguments from evidence. I make no attempt at clamorous leverage. The petition would neither add nor detract from those discussions.

-- If the post-ops of the world are willing to come out in something close to their true numbers, declare and identify themselves, join hands with the pre-ops, and assemble in our true numbers on the US National Mall to demand recognition and removal of the state-sanctioned complexities imposed on people who need help the most - well, then we might have something. There is a lot of work to do before that day. Perhaps the petition is one step in that direction.

-- And with that comment, we come to my prime objection. Declaring what we are not takes a lower precedence for me that declaring who we are.

A positive message appeals to me far more than open-ended polemic.

* * * * *

Let me add a special not regarding Cathryn Platine. we have a lot of respect for her work and writing. That should be clear from our past actions on her behalf.

Respectfully,

Sharon

Ms. Sharon Sinead Gaughan
TS-Si VP & Executive Director
Managing Editor, TS-Si.org

Blah.

Homosexuality is just plain strange to me, and when two and when two supposedly transsexuals tie up, even stranger...though not unusual, almost normal for transsexual "lesbians". Bisexuals, ARE homosexual...do your homework, sweetpea.

You want to support the GLBT then just come out and say it instead of hiding behind your "non-profit organization" BS...which means just little more than nothing.

You do NOT want to support a transgender/transsexual differentiation, so just come out and say it. You want to offer up your laughable caveats, knock yourself out...you certainly aren't doing anything to help get transsexualism away from the transgender idiots...like going to a Pride Parade is doing anything constructive. Seems like you are way more interested in justifying your own issues.

You're hypocrites, plain and simple.

Susan, you are one sad puppy; I am Bisexual as are MANY women both HBS and natal. Despite your "definition" Homosexuals (and lesbians) are fixated on the SAME sex and wouldn't consider a relationship with the opposite sex; why do you think bisexuality is listed separately; we aren't limited in the choice of to whom we give our hearts. I wont sign the petition, I dont think it will have any effect. The only "on-line" petition I ever saw that got I think it was slightly over 5000 signatures was one sponsored by PFC against Bailey's book receiving an award and that one was world wide.

I know that Lisa and Sharon are in favour of a TS/TG separation; one only has to read the writings here on TS-Si which you apparently have failed to do. Are YOU a TG is that your issue or do you think that if someone doesn't follow your lead that YOU get to judge and condemn them ? How sad.

Pamela, a BiSexual HBS woman

All parties: we welcome responsible comment. Personal attacks and misrepresentations are contrary to our Terms of Use.

If you consider it a good thing, then why haven't you and Lisa signed it personally, that would have no bearing on any non profit status whatsoever...but you haven't, because you don't support it, even though you do get the significance of it.

How do you expect the mall to fill up with protester demanding a split...divine intervention...ESP...the petition is an effort to unite, not just talk amongst your blog commenters saying the same thing ad nauseum.

The rest of your points are fill with contradictions... you like it, but it'll do not good...room for approaches, but you don't seem to have any ideas to unite...and on and on.

I'm through with the conversation. You two and TS-Si do NOT support this petition, either as an organization or personally...that's all it is to it.

The journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step. An old cliche for sure but if we cannot rely on those of us that have a like mind and shared history to support even one small step, albeit that that small step has almost NO chance of success, then all the science and all the articles and all the readers of this website just as well give up and go home.

In my opinion the whole transgender thing is nothing more than a fad that will dissipate as time goes by and mainstream continue to deny them their demands. It cannot stand the test of time because their cause is not one that most of them feel that strongly about. Right now its all rah rah rah, but down the road, with changing times that always come, they will dissapear like the hippies.

However, we will still be here dealing with the fallout. The petition should be supported, if not officially then at least personally. Your not for profit status in no way extends to your personal right to sign a petition that you personally say you agree with.

It may not help, but then neither does all the science articles that almost none of us read and certainly none of the transgenders could give a damn about.

Step up to the plate ..... sign the petition

Sharon you must be one of the most patient and tolerant women on the planet! You somehow manage to get through silly conficts. This one is downright nasty.

Like Pamela said, there is something strange about the "Susan" person's comments. They fly in the face of the facts. Just read and observe - it is clear you ladies are serious. O know that transgenders sometimes show up here and take the "If you're not with me you must be against me" tack. Now, that is miseducated baloney!

For myself, I have mixed feelings about the petition. I notice the heading says something like "let my people go". That is a bit inflammatoy, making it sound like a petition against slavery or something.

Except for that arrogance, I don't see how the basic idea can hurt. What might hurt is if very few actually sign the thing or sign with phony names.

I have to think it over some and get back on that.

Martin C. Burke
(My real name, btw)

Check out my blog befor you insinuate I'm transgender...I'm fed up with no action just words...so are a host of people from all over the world who have signed the petition...and the demographics and numbers are increasing. People WANT a split, but no one seems to want to do anything about it.

Susan
http://tgnonsense.wordpress.com/

I know susan .. she is definatly not a TG! (neither am I by the way) She is a post op woman that is trying to get people to do more than just yak about freeing us from the LGB. The problem lies in that many of you dont want freeing ... and in that Susan is the USA in Iraq.

I prefer the factual reporting, analysis, and reasoned arguments on this site to a one sentence petition with a bombastic title seeking a, shall we say, less than precise course of action.

One is not a hypocrite because she does not blindly follow strategies selected by others.

I say Amen to your comment!

I have been back here occasionally, since I posted on 30th July, in order to keep up with this thread. I am disappointed to find that the culture of confrontation still exists within our ranks. I do not subscribe to negativity, spiteful and knee jerk reactions which one would expect to find in more mannish forums. Whatever happened to the motto ?United we stand. Divided we fall?? I can imagine that the division displayed here would have our opponents laughing up their sleeves?.and whatever happened to the discussion about Karen Daemons, discussion has moved far from the original subject?

I find the commentary of Sharon and Lisa to be admirable and all their efforts laudible and I deplore the way in which their sexuality has been used as ?a stick with which to beat them? I agree, in particular, with their asssertion of the positive. I favour a moderate, unconfrontational approach which is more likely to achieve our aims without denying treatment or relief to our opponents (TG and AG), What a miserable existence theirs must be, I have compassion for them.

Kaye

The soul would have no rainbow
Had the eyes no tears.

(John Vance Cheney)

Just when I was really starting to enjoy the tragic spectacle, along comes Ms. Congeniality to restore order to the sandpit. LOL Nah, You Go Girl - someone had to do it eventually.

It's made for some very interesting reading though, and it's brought up a few things for me which I'd like to comment & seek clarification upon.

Firstly, I can't believe that anyone who can get their heads around being born a woman with a male body and accept that this is a naturally occuring random factor of birth, and understand that biological sex does not dictate one's gender, can't also get their heads around the concept that sexual orientation is likewise not dictated by either sex or gender and is an equally naturally (not strange) occuring random factor of birth.

And I really can't believe that anyone from this community would be so childish as to throw such a totally irrelevant issue into this thread, for no other reason than to maliciously hurtful. We've probably all been called homosexuals a much more hurtful context in our journey's so one would think that we would all have a little more respect for each other in this regard, or be getting some counselling for a serious case of kick the cat syndrome huh?

It wasn't nice to read here and it saddens me to see people taking such cheap shots at the ladies who put so much of their voluntry time & effort into making this resource possible, because they are possionate about their mission - but then as a casual observer I have to wonder if perhaps it's just an ironic by-product of the spiritual environment I've seen manifest in many of the posts here. I've seen a few posts on this forum already where the 'Homosexual stick' has been thrown at the transgender community and none of those who purport to "support transgenders in being who they are as long as transgenders don't try speaking for them" have remained silent. Could I respectfully remind you all that just as some apparent transsexuals turn out be 'transgender idiots/pretenders', some sticks turn out to be boomarangs.

Nor do I think that doing to the transgender community what you resent some of their number doing to you (such as slaping offensive labels on them, or making statements which could misinform/mislead the public & politicians) is either efficient use of energy in the process of obtaining "the acceptance, medical treatment, & legal protection of individuals in the process of correcting the misalignment of their anatomical sex, & supporting their transition into society". Some of you might be pleasently surprised at just how much support you might get from the transgender community (ignore the ones who just want to argue with you ... or are they just reacting to some of the obviously deliberate offensive comments some HBS women use in the abscent of adequate science or the knowledge thereof in a misplaced effort to further your own cause?)

I see labeling like Homosexual men, fetishists, sexual deviants, to mention a few being slapped on (presumably all) transgender people & "so called 3rd Sexers" from some HBS women) and I preally don't have time to read through this extensive looking resource, so can I ask you Lisa does the science prove all of this, and is the current science actually complete enough to be able to reasonably place these labels on the entire transgender community?

I'm particularly interested to know if the same science which has been applied to HBS women has also been applied to 3rd Gender communities such as Fa'afafine or Whakawahine (who have also been 'homosexualised' & 'transgenderised' since the colonisation of pasifika cultures and the insidious influence on their cultures of the western binary of gender & sexuality which simply does not allow for such a concept as a third gender)

Having a few Fa'afafine & Whakawahine friends and knowing something of their culture (which by it's traditional nature suppresses/discourages surgical intervention), and I wonder if we wouldn't find a similar difference between the brains of a high percentage of Fa'afafine, Whakawahine, Fakafefine etc and male brains as has been found between those of HBS women & men?

What conserns me (in my lack of knowlede of 'the science') is that there could be a lage sector of the community in my own back yard who have been equally mis-tagged with the transgender label as have HBS women, and as someone has previously pointed out "The lack/absence of proof that something is so, is not proof that it is not so"

And similarly, perhaps just because you have yet to see any evidence of widespread support from the transgender community it does not prove that it's not there or may not be there if a more mutually respectful atmosphere was fostered by enough people from both communities. In that reguard I'd ask some of you who's postings I've found offensive here to re-read Diana's post as she has pretty much 'verbalised' a lot of what I felt when I first arrived here and found as much non-science than science.

I have already tried to make this point once, so this will be my last attempt.

Can you imagine what this terrible thread of comments would seem to someone not in our little "club?" The author spins a story of profoundly unfair public treatment of someone that cannot conceivably pose a realistic threat or offense to anyone using the facilities, and who professes (with at least SOME basis) to have the same birth condition as many of us.

So, then, what is our reaction? Sympathy? Condemnation for the city's absurdly nasty and arbitrary treatment? Inquiry as to whether we can help?

Of course not!! Instead we engage in this incredibly nit-picky, "inside baseball" inquisition into whether Ms. Deamons is exactly like us, with the (mostly) unspoken assumption that, if not, she deserves nothing but contempt.

In this thread, we play into the hands of those that consider us exclusionary and elitist. Not only Ms. Deamons, but the article, the site, and our community deserve better.
Diana

Ladies, for various reasons, I am probably going to end up being one of those antithesisecal 'non-op transsexuals' which I've been told by some HBS Women simply cannot exist, so in your collective minds at least I am probably one of 'fetishistic homosexual transgender idiots', but you know what? I might be just a chemically modified, post- orchidecomal, fetishistic homosexual idiot - but even I don't really don't get the transgender thing either - I mean what is that about? I know what gender my brain is, I don't come over all tingly & hot from wearing 'frillies', I don't have any use for my 'pole' - I certaily don't want to stick it in anyone's 'hole', I could never go back to 'doing the guy thing' for any reason of convenience or any brief amount of time - so I'm simply a 'femme' (you put whatever disparaging label you like on me, I don't care) But please do not make the mistake of just assuming that I or many like me do not understand & support HBS women need to shake off the inappropriate transgender tag and get all the acceptance, recognitions and protections appropriate to your specific identity - If I ever become 'the ememy' it will only be because of the 'pull them down to build us up', hostile attitudes and 'propaganderist' campaigns of a disrespectful few of you which the bulk of you seem to endorse by your acceptance thereof that will ever change that.

Re the Original topic: Whether Karen is TG or TS is irrelivant to the big picture - it is still discrimination and if it is not appropriate for her to share a women's space, it is equally inappropriate, not to mention unsafe for her to enter a man's space, and the lack of appropriate facilities for transgender women (though they may need to be different/seperate from women's spaces) is still a form of discrimination which only the femme community (not the GLB community) have any real vested interest in addressing. I believe we can all work together in mutual support & sisterhood for our needs & rights appropriate to our respective feminine identities, but first we have to stop feeling threatened by each other and stop giving each-other cause to feel threatened or disrespected.

Lauryn Weissbaum - Opotiki, Aotearoa

I read through your comments while resisting the urge to scroll down to see who was the author. I was intrigued by what unfolded relating to your perceptions of the HBS versus Transgenderism situation and in particular your knowledge of the Oceana / Pacifica phenomena of Fa?afafine, Whakawahine or "third sex" in Pacific cultures. (N1)

Since you do not identify as HBS, I am somewhat gratified to read your assertions that there could well be large numbers of people out there, from both "camps" who realise the futility of the continual antagonism which currently exists. Perhaps even by "Rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's", as it were, a solution may be found. I also find it quite remarkable that the same people who hurl insults at TG also seem to adopt a rude, if not confrontational approach to eminent medicos and administrators, thereby putting the backs up of the people who could otherwise, perhaps, be persuaded to arbitrate in some way ... or at least help in finding a solution.

I believe that We, here in Aotearoa (N2) are lucky that the HBS TG conflict hasn?t really had much impact here yet but if the "ranters and ravers" have their way and the paranoia continues, it won?t be long. The third sex cultures of the Pacific Islands are so evident here and contribute to the acceptance of gender diversity which gives rise to the self adopted title of "Trans Utopia" (Please, no castigation for using the Trans word)

Anyway, its late and I am tired. She who turns and runs away lives to write another day.


(N1) Sexual minority "third sex" Pacific communities go under a variety of different names: Fa'afafine (Samoa), Mahu (Hawaii), Fakaleiti (Tonga), Whakawahine (Aotearoa), 'Akava'ine (Cook Is), Vaka sa lewa lewa (Fiji), Rae rae (Tahiti) and Fiafifine (Niue).

(N2) Aotearoa = New Zealand. Aotearoa is the Maori name for the land which they first saw from their Waka (canoes), it means "Land of the long white cloud"

Perhaps it's just a 'kiwi' thing Kaye... this apparently radical concept that we can recpectfully acknowledge & accept each other's specific identities without feeling threatened by or antagonistic towards those of us who walk a similar path to a different destination.

Considering that the estimated majority of 'femmes' in NZ belong to pasifika '3rd sex' cultures (who do not self-identify as transgender and do not normally involve themselves in so-called transgender issues/advocacy groups), I really think it is our duty as Aotearovians to acknowledge & understand that unique sector of our multi-cultural society.

Perhaps the 'Trans Utopia' phrase (which I am probably guilty of first applying to NZ back in the early days of Enfemme NZ) may now be less PC/appropriate as it seemed at the time, but none-the-less, despite my recent abdication as 'camp mother', I remain passionate about preserving & strengthening the 'spirit of sisterhood' which still endures within the 'femme fraturnity' in our lovely country.

That spirit of sisterhood has it's strength & value for all of us in its transcendance of labels & 'boxing' terminology, much of which is oft misapplied anyway.... and in that respect, I have never been against "HBS secession" from the doubious 'transgender umbrella' - It is the importation & 'verbatum regurgitation' of the antagonistic & hateful 'doctrine' of low-level 'HBS Crazies' & sad obsessive "man-haters who've run out of sensitive 'real men' to beat-up on who have to resort to 're-labeling' the entire non-HBS sector of the femme fratenity as 'men' to justify aiming their rantings at someone who might actually give a damn" which I am opposed to.

I'm sure that you have already seen this sort of antipodaean-ignorant dogma creeping onto some of our NZ forums under the guise of pre-empting a perceived threat of 'creeping transgenderism', and the discord it has evoked - and if there was ever a time in NZ's history when the femme community needs to avoid squabling and establish an accord it is now.

I think we can be very proud of our Human Rights Commission's ground-breaking work with the "To Be Who I Am" report despite it's contentious original working title "The Transgender Report", and we need to focus not so much upon the dubious application of the transgender label as the ethos of one's right to be who they are & live accordingly with dignity and respect.

I also believe that if we focus our efforts in the important follow-up work which has already commenced on "who we are" rather than trying to define those "who we are not"' in derogatory terms, "who we are not" will become clearly evident without alienating all of "those who we are not, who might also feel they are not transgendred or GLB".
That's what we need to be fighting for sister, and we need to be fighting together, not each other.

At the end of the day, who someone else is or how they choose to identify is none of our business as long as it does not impinge upon our own right to be who we are & live accordingly with dignity. I believe that the 'legitimacy' of the HBS diagnosis has been well established, and once that has been fully understood & accepted by the NZ femme fraternity as a whole, the sisterhood will eventually influence the powers that be ... and perhaps Aotearoa will again stand out as an example for the rest of the world in acknowledging and protecting it's women born with HBS - and then neither who's left who still wishes to call themselves transgendered or what they are or what they are not will matter much.

Just a final thought for consideration: We imported the rap/hip-hop/L.A. Gang Culture from the USA and now we have the same 'crack' (we call it 'P' here) pandemic that goes with it... so far, NZ is fairly free of 'Transgender fundamentalist crazies' but what do the Katys & Rachaels think they will create/invite if they start importing & distributing the culture & propaganda of 'HBS fundamentalist crazies'? Stick to the science of who you are ladies, and forget about 'dissing' those who you are not, and the 'non-crazies' among the 'who you are nots' will not oppose you, even if they don't all actively support you.