It seems to be a human trait to confuse religion with spirituality. People love to do this because it is a way of concealing their agenda. Religion is a man made construct used to control behavior. Religion has as its core an agenda to create conformity and to support a physical infrastructure. That could be anything from a few stone age men sitting around a fire on the night of the full moon, chanting to the stars all the way to a worldwide religio-political engine that controls whole nations. You can cite Bible passages until you are blue in the face; these people put their religion ahead of their spirituality. I have a friend and ex roommate who is seminary trained (Dallas Bible College). There is nothing in the Bible that pertains to HBS men and women save for a few passages that condone corrective surgery. This person from the FRC misquotes scripture to forward his agenda that is bearing false witness, perhaps he should consult Jesus on that. I am sure Jesus thought my parents did right by having my eye surgery when I was 18 months old in order that I could have partial sight instead of being totally blind. I am sure Jesus is happy that I grew up to be a highly skilled electronics technician and raised a daughter of my own and a stepdaughter. None of this would have happened if my parents had followed the FRC guy's dogma. I would still be borne with HBS to boot. I would have been a real mess instead of a person trying to make the best of what God gave me at birth. People like this guy from FRC give Christianity a bad name with their intolerance and need to judge others; judgment is God?s job not his. I would plead with the FRC man to cultivate a closer relationship with God through prayer and meditation instead of using his religion as a crutch to reinforce bigotry toward others. I would plead with him to read the words of Jesus in the context they were written and search in his heart for resolution between what he purports to believe in and his actions.

Take care
Sue

Is there any wonder why the confusion when some who claim to be HBS welcome attachment to the glbt and at the same time disparage religious people?

Jesus never claimed to ignore the Old Testament. He instead said He came to clarify it and follow its teaching. Anyone who might pick and choose sections of the bible they agree with are simply doing exactly what they claim to be arguing against as exampled by Grubaker. They ignore what applies to them and follow that which they believe links them to a self serving spirituality. To believe in a faith as I do is not an attempt to conceal any agenda. It is simply my way to be closer to my God.

Why get offended at Grubaker? It seems he is simply replying to the transgender propaganda which wrongly includes those born HBS. Educate him instead of blaming him for having listened to others. Blame those who would link us to variant behaviors instead of idly sitting by and allowing them to join us to their message as if we too share in it.

I personally am offended at the constant attacks against religion. I am a religious person who also happens to be HBS born. I believe in my Catholic faith and identify with it. I am not homosexual nor transgender and I deeply resent my being attached to those behaviors by those who would demean me by attaching me to those identities as if a sub-set.

I wonder how we might convince the differing religious that we are simply part of God's plan and not an abomination. Pope Paul VI believed just that but then that was before the phony gender construct took even those kicking and screaming under its banner.

First thing perhaps might be to argue for truth instead of joining in Pride events and therefore making it appear to the misinformed that we too share in the glbt choices of primary lifestyles. How confusing to claim one message yet join in the presentation of another!

The Beatitudes: Matthew 5-10. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Diane

As matter of record, if Jesus didn't come to change what was in the Old Testament, why aren't we all using Kosher dinnerware and cooking utensils? Oh yeah, he only came to put and end to the stuff we don't like, not the stuff we do like. Different strokes for different folks

But I don't care what the Old Testament says, only what can reliably be attributed to Jesus (and not some centuries later interpolater). Sorry, but I behold the man, ecce homo and all that, not Mother Church (who taught me well, gave me a classical education, taught me to think, then told me to shut up when I asked too many questions about theological inconsistancies).

As to attachement to the GBLT community (whose physical actions the church would call sinful): think of it as a mission. TS-Si goes out among the GBLT, among the straight world, among the churches, synagogues, temples, and mosques, and preaches the word about what HBS is, helping those who are HBS, teaching those who might be ignorant. We are not ourselves the truth, but bear witness to the truth of HBS that all might understand and believe.

But again, different strokes to different folks. Some just prefer to curse the darkness, I guess.

Ahh, here's a subject that I can comment about.
Keep n mind that Jesus was a Jew and as such was under the commandments of the Old Testament and the Covenant that God had made with the Jewish race. When he was rejected as the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament, crucified and died upon the cross, that ended the covenant with the Jews as the "chosen race" and effectively ended the old testament and started the New. Read carefully, one finds that many of the commandments of the Old Testament are present in the new; but a burnt sacrifice, blowing of the rams horn, and the dietary restrictions were all ended. When someone quotes the Old Testament as justification for doing or not doing some action I pay no attention as I haven't seen them sacrifice a young lamb or fine bull on the alter and burn it, plus I am NOT Jewish so that covenant doesn't pertain to me other than as the history and background for for the New Testament.

OK, MY turn. Here's how I feel about the whole religion affair. I'm not very religious, but I do believe that a religon should not be attacked, unless it causes harm (such as Jim Jones' cult, or the muslim fanatics). It's one thing to fire back at some stupid, condescending, loudmouthed fundie, such as Grubaker. People like that (including my brother, who in the past has acted like a stupid bigoted fundie), use religion to validate their own bigotry, and failings. BUT, for people to attack religion in general - THAT I have no use for. That is wrong. I may have no use for religion, due to my personal issues with god. But, many people get some very good benefits from religion. So, what is wrong with them being religous, and worshiping god, via a specific religion/method? Why nothing of course. My answer to them - carry on.

Ellen

I have to smile when the subject of religion comes up. My Catholic Mother was excommunicated (condemned to hell) because she had the temerity to marry an Anglican and refused to bring her children up Catholic but instead to offer us children a choice in the matter. I have a serious issue with the actions of that Priest. It affected my Mother for the rest of her life as she was raised in an orphanage by Catholic nuns. The three Jewish or Old Testament founded religions all contain excuses for such exclusion within them. As a woman whose heritage is northern European I question what a religion founded on the survival needs of a Middle Eastern tribe of Arabic nomads has to do with me!

One of the very controversial issue faced by early Christians was whether or not they should admit non-jews into the Faith. Ponder that one for a moment. It is a matter of historic record that the Christian faith in it?s current form, was spread throughout Europe by the ruthless slaughter and murder of around three million women who were the guardians of the old ?Mother Earth? based religions of northern Europe. They are in fact the actions of a Patriarchal religion replacing a Matriarchal religion. It was called the ?reformation? and consisted of burning women as ?witches? if they had so much as a mole or birthmark in the wrong place or practised healing in the old styles. The images of the pagan Gods were used to portray the Devil. Christian festivals were moved around the Calender to coincide with pagan ones. Christmas and the birth of Christ replaced the pagan festival of Yuletide. Christ was not born in December yet that is when we celebrate his birth. When you consider that the population of Europe as a whole was little more than 30 million in total, it makes the 12 million Jews, homosexuals, Negroes and Gypsies killed by Hitler and he Nazis look like a Sunday school picnic in comparison. Such actions do not seem to me to be the result of following the teachings of a merciful and compassionate Jesus. Neither did the behaviour of the conquistadors who brought the Catholic Faith to South America in a murderous rampage. These facts are conveniently forgotten.

Please do not get me wrong here; what people choose to believe and follow as their spiritual guide to morality is a matter for them. Diane, if you find comfort and guidance in your faith that is wonderful and may it always be so. For myself, I do believe in the existence of a divine spirit. However I believe that spirit is lives within us all and has as its voice the quietly spoken word of our conscience when it tells us when we do or say something wrong or cruel and unfair. The words of God are not found in those who hold a bible (or Quoran) in one hand and a sword (or bomb or atomic weapon) in the other. The word of God is found in the Love of one human for another and in our concern for the welfare of another, whoever they may be. It is not found in condemnation of another nor in hatred for another.

I think perhaps some facts need to be mentioned in lieu of the misinformation given by another.

A priest cannot excommunicate, only a bishop can do that and only after some serious violation of cannon law or a blatant and often public denial of Catholic doctrine. Seems to me that most organizations deny membership to those that disagree with their policies or is that ignored and this false issue is being used to attack religion once again?

I attended a wedding where both a Catholic priest and the husband's minister participated in the wedding of a bride and groom of different faiths. To say that marriage between a non-Catholic and a Catholic is grounds for excommunication is fabrication. And the fact of the matter is that yes most marrying in the Catholic Church are asked to bring their children up in the Catholic faith but if they do not it is not grounds for excommunication. Perhaps there was an agreement to do just that prior to the marraige and later was ignored. Or perhaps the mother felt her promise to raise the children as Catholic was not done and therefore she thought that was an act of excommunication...it was not as far as I know. Maybe she simply felt it was and applied the feeling of excommunication to herself.

I will not get into the pagan or Arabic based comments and that connection with Christain foundation. That is deserving of a more intelligent discourse which I think in this context would be simply battering ones head against the wall.

I have never tried to force my religious beliefs upon another. By the same token I will not stand by idly while others attack those beliefs under a false contention and misinformation.

Diane

My Mother was excommunicated for the reasons stated and the priest concerned WAS a Bishop and all other references are a matter of recorded history. I was not suggesting Diane that you were forcing your faith on anyone, Margaret Grubbaker may perhaps Be accused of that but not you or for that matter me. Neither was I attacking you or your beliefs. I say again if your Faith brings you comfort I hope it may always be so. Incidentally, because my Mother was a child born out of wedlock, the Catholic Nuns who raised her repeatedly referred to her as "that barstard" child she also carried those psychological scars to her grave.

I do believe we need a timeout at this point. Both of you, put your head down on your desk for ten minutes.