TS-Si is dedicated to the acceptance, medical treatment, and legal protection of individuals correcting the misalignment of their brains and their anatomical sex, while supporting their transition into society as hormonally reconstituted and surgically corrected citizens.
| Thought Experiment: Gender Theory And The Naked Truth |
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| Opinion - Global Warning | |||
| Lisa Jain Thompson | |||
| Tuesday, 29 January 2008 19:00 | |||
Springfield, VA, USA. Thought experiments are devices of the imagination used to investigate the nature of things. We need only list a few of the well-known thought experiments to be reminded of their enormous influence and importance in the sciences: Newton's bucket, Maxwell's demon, Einstein's elevator, Heisenberg's gamma-ray microscope, Schrödinger's cat. So let's think about Transgenders, shall we?
A thought experiment:
Two transgenders, a female with a penis and a male with breasts and vagina, arrive dressed gender appropriately at a nudist camp. After checking into their room, they take off their gender appropriate clothes and go to happy hour out around the swimming pool. All the other guests are out there, men and women, male and female, drinking mojitos, and chatting each other up. Perhaps liaisons are being arranged.
Question:
Without their gender appropriate clothes, what is the sex and gender of the female with a penis and the male with breasts and vagina? Is the female with a penis still a woman and the male with breasts and vagina still a man?
Areas requiring further research:
I'm serious.
Really.
You just are going to have to try and give this thought experiment thing a chance. I mean it's not like anyone would try to do this in real life, would they?
A little background. A thought experiment is the use of a hypothetical scenario to help us explore and understand the way things actually are. Below is a famous example (You can skip this part if you want and come back in a couple paragraphs down.)
Schrödinger wrote [2]:
-- Usually stated as
Now back to our naked transgenders.
Gender
 theory asserts that gender is a social construct (clothes, social roles, etc.), that, if left alone, men and women would exhibit no significant gender differences. The transgender movement extends the gender assertion to include physical sex: females can have a penis, males can have breasts and a vagina. Except for some incidentals that don't amount for much, the transgender movement asserts that sex is also a social construct. You are what you say you are no matter how you prefer your genitals to be. Thus we have the two transgenders: one a female with a penis, the other a male with breasts and vagina, dressed appropriately for those socially constructed sexes and genders.
The two transgenders have arrived at a nudist camp, requiring that they be naked, stripped of their cultural costumes and clothing.
At the happy hour, the other guests, who are not transgendered, sans gender theory social constructs, are naked around the pool. Merriment and alcohol are pursued by all.
We continue.
A key concern of human existence (following close after food, shelter, and survival) is sex. Sometimes sex seems to our number one concern.
The absolute first thing we notice and catalog when we meet a person for the first time is their sex, subconsciously if not consciously. The sex of a stranger is a key to species survival: males are physically more dangerous and may be a threat to the group; females are significantly less physically dangerous and provide opportunities to reproduce and continue the species.
Sex is important so we look.
The transgender movement says yes. Sex is a social construct. The female with a penis is still a woman because she says she is. The male with breasts and vagina, and perhaps a period, is still a man because he says he is. To the transgender community, actual genitalia is immaterial except as has been noted elsewhere "the one thing most transgendered people seem to do is insist on talking about their genitals. [3]"
However, most of the human race believes not only that genitalia exist for a reason but that penises and vaginas make a difference in our life experiences and how we approach the world.
Which leads to further questions.
My limited experience (a handful of decades) suggests that when a human male sees another person with breasts and vagina, he perceives a female human. Likewise, when a human female sees a person with a penis, especially if it is erect, she perceives a male human. Little ambiguity would seem to exist in their perception.
Perhaps transgenders see the world differently, but if they do, they need to present a rational scientific explanation why physical biology is unrelated to their sex construct — why the perception of the other nude guests is wrong. The transgender movement must present their argument coherently supported by the appropriate neurobiological research.
Sociological explanations and papers are insufficient to explain the impact of physical genitalia on human existence. Just to say there is no impact is not nearly enough. Where is the beef, the hard scientific evidence that supports the transgender assertion?
Without a rational scientific basis and evidence to support the transgender explanation that the neurobiological binary sex construct perceived by most adult humans is wrong, the explanation with the fewest possible assumptions must be taken as correct (or at least as a closer approximation of reality). The perception of the other unclothed guests are correct and the transgender assertion must be viewed as fallacious:
Clothes do not make one male or female, a woman or a man.
Neither does political polemics.
The sex binary exists, fully supported by both the neurobiology of the human animal and ongoing scientific and medical research
— despite the best efforts of the transgender community to the contrary.
1. Thought Experiments. James Robert Brown. In: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Stanford Univerity. 2007.
2. E. Schrödinger, Die gegenwärtige Situation in der Quantenmechanik, Naturwissenschaften 23: pp.807-812; 823-828; 844-849 (1935).
The Present Situation In Quantum Mechanics: A Translation Of "Cat Pardix Paper". Erwin Schrödinger; Translator: John D. Trimmer. This translation was originally published in Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, 124, 323-38.
Appeared as Section I.11 of Part I of Quantum Theory and Measurement. J.A. Wheeler and W.H. Zurek, eds. Princeton university Press. New Jersey 1983. [ Full Text (PDF) ]
3. Not Ready For Prime Time Or How The TG Rights Movement Went Insane By Talking Only To Themselves. Rev. Cathryn Paltine. TS-Si.org. February 2, 2008.
 Ms. Lisa Jain Thompson is a Co-Founder & Principal of TS-Si. She also serves as a Contributing Editor and columnist for the TS-Si website. She maintains another site, StarPoet.com, for her poetry and literary works.Ms. Thompson's signed articles contain her own opinions and do not necessarily convey an official position of TS-Si, its partners, or affiliates. Lisa welcomes your comments. Use the form below or email via her TS-Si Contact Page. We will not divulge any personal details or place you on a mailing list without your permission.
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| Last Updated on Saturday, 02 February 2008 14:39 |
One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small, that perhaps in the course of the hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer which shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic aid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts.
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Comments
Who cares what the other guests view the people as, A transgendered person is that way because it is for themselves, it is about self acceptance. DUH...
If transistion was all about getting the world to see me a man or woman then it would be empty and pointless and would have been shot down decades ago, by any educated person.
The fact is those people feel that they are whatever gender they relate to...
I mean is this getting through to you....????
Its more a thing for self acceptance than public acceptance...
Its just like being gay, one doesnt need scientific facts to understand that a person admits to being gay because he wants to accept himself for what he is....
You really are the most cynical person I have ever read of, you seem to be the most thickheaded ignorant individual that is transgendered ever...
I shudder to think of all the harm you do to the very society you are a part of whether you like it or not, but to be honest why dont you just accept yourself and stop posting this incredible rubish bull[deleted]. GET On with your life, and stop being so damn stuck on the fact that your transgendered, stop trying to make it OK, and just move past it. Jeeze what a bitch you are seriously....
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The transgender do not accept the driven need of others to correct their body to reflect their brain. That is unacceptable to them for how would they explain to others what rung on the self constructed ladder of choice the transgender might have climbed? Seems as long as they place the HBS/TS on that TG ladder they have legitimacy but if we are not there to give them credence then they simply have their delusions as cover.
Mara, I do not do you harm as you do to me. I do not decide your clothes; do not demand you be open and proud; do not label others with a 'trans' confusion identity; do not insist you have surgery or even take hormones; do not mis-label you and condemn you for not accepting my identity as your own. But, on the other hand you and others DEMAND I be classed as if an element under your TG umbrella identity. No my dear, if I might enter a nudist colony I would not enter as a transgender or trans anything but as the woman I am proud to be and would be welcome for I present as to what I am and not as I demand others accept in contradiction of obvious facts.
Diane
Diane
I am truly sorry that some of the people of this particular website are so focused on the social aspect you indite. Gender identity is just that, it is something that cisgendered, and gender variant people deal with and it is for ourselves to conquer not others.
I just cant get over the fact that people here are acually trying thier hardest to find some bad in thier being gender variant, why are you all looking for the evil in it???
Why cant you just accept that maybe its ok for a man to have a vagina, or a woman a peins, you all are so clearly focused on ones genitalia and not on not thier minds.
I mean no harm, and I apoligize my above post was nasty but like the title said my other post on the other article was much more well spoken, and then i decided to read further into Lisas work and noticed that she is a off kilter individual in my opinion, and clearly needs to further do research before declaring herslef knowledgable to write regarding the issues she brings to hand.
Dont get me wrong her question she brings to the table is a good one, she just supports it in a absent way, and as I said in my other reply to another column a first year pysch student could have written a more insightful, intelligent, and progressive column.
Simply put I do not appreciate Lisa's work.
What is so hard to grasp about that? Transgender persons in that configuration write me all the time to tell me that
1. They like their penis, they don't want to get rid of their penis, they get pleasure from their penis, and
2. They are a woman.
Makes sense to them.
Mara dearest, their is a difference between sex and gender. You (and the rest of the transgender movement) are so obsessed with gender (the social role and clothing expected by society) that you over look the nose on your face (or the lack of it).
GENDER IS NOT SEX. TRANSGENDER IS NOT HBS.
HBS is a medical condition in which HBS men and women need to bring their outward physical genitalia into conformance with the sex identity of their brain that was set before birth.
I do not ask you to appreciate me, Mara, I ask you to think, and think logically and not with your hormones and emotions. Instead all you present me with is adolescent attitude.
Write me when you have lived in the real world for a while -- say in about ten years -- but only after you have learned to discuss your situation as working adult.
"The Transgender Conceptualizato n: A woman with a penis is the transgender conceptualizato n that says that a transgender person who, although physically male in all parts with all the original manufacturer equipment including a penis , says that she is a woman because she dresses and presents as a woman."
See I think you have it wrong, maybe the TS individuals you know say that or feel that way, but did it ever occur to you that there are people who feel they are woman not becasuse of the way they dress or present.
You my friend are focusing on clothing and social roles.
Look deeper and ask yourself is it really all about your clothing or social roles that makes you a woman???
Because its not, I think you may have a crossdresser confused with Transexuality here???
I found it hilarious that you Judge individuals so rashly without considering that there are opposing viewpoints to every argument, Like I said earlier, I think your thesis is GREAT!!! and it should be studied to a greater degree, and it is...
But your articles do not match up with your investigations and many of your facts are highly misguided and very bias.
Yet you claim:
TS-SI:Dedicated to the acceptance, medical treatment, & legal protection of individuals in the process of changing their anatomical sex, & supporting their transition into society.
I laughed so hard that you are the President of this website yet you have the ovaries to declare your transphobic attitude and nature in your articles.
You are confusing at best...
Please understand that I really apoligize to come off rude and I did apoligize earlier, and In case you didnt read that I will reapoligize again for any childish attitude, I have done my best to convey my thoughts to you here and have a appropiate discussion with you, in fact I would love to talk with you regarding these articles in a appropiate manner, send me a e-mail.
I am all for a well mannered debate of ideas, and i think there is alot I could learn from you. So please write me if you wish.
thank you for your time.
Mara
"A woman's love is her whole being, a man's love is a thing apart."
-- various versions from various poets
Whats funny is your:
"Perhaps the F word was the proper choice for the situation, the perfect word that encapsulated both the student's frustration and the quality of the student's answers. Even Shakespeare used obscenities when they were the exactly right word and an appropriate expression of his intentions. Then again, they are only words after all and who gives a flying f..?"
Remeber writing that, oh and do you think your TS issues from a long derived love of XENA, like you just really want to be her or something????
I think I really question your existence miss Lisa...
If you really doubt my existence, feel free to come to Pentagon and I will take you on a tour. (but be forewarned that we take photos of all the visitors)
As for now, Mara, you are just as tiresome as ever and no wittier.
Mara, on the other hand, is Mara
Or maybe not.
But as for now, quit using this as a blog and spamming this site.
Lisa, I found this while on the phone with a friend, a forensic psychiatrist and read it to her.......we both think you are a freakin' genius!
I had started to write an essay about pie solidarity and apples then declaring henceforth all fruit must be called apples.......bu t you blew it out of the water with this.
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I would agree that if I saw someone who had a penis I would assume they are a male. Similarly if I saw a person with breasts and a vagina I would assume they are a female. In fact I would not be wrong. They are in fact a biological male nad female (excluding intersex), respectively.
However, that does not imply that my assumtpion/obse rvation is accurate.
The difference lies in the distinction between gender and sex. "Gender is between the ears, sex is between the legs". Thus, someone who has a penis and identifies as a female is infact both a male and a female. A male sex and a female gender.
Instead of asking how others would preceive this person, one should instead ask, how should we. Just as I could assume that someone who listens to one rap song likes rap, but instead they could just like that one song. Similarly, here you have pointed out one element (biological) that makes someone with a penis a "man" and someone with breasts and a vagina "female".
However there are other attribtes. I'm not talking about the clothes we wear, or even the mannerisms we use. Instead, I'm talking about how we identify. Just as listening to one rap song doesn't mean that I like rap, having a penis doesn't make me a man nor does having a vagina make me a woman. Instead, it's a question of identity, gender identity.
You propose the scenario: "Perhaps transgenders see the world differently, but if they do, they need to present a rational scientific explanation why physical biology is unrelated to their sex construct — why the perception of the other nude guests is wrong."
You essentially ask someone else to give rational behind why biology is unrealed to sex (used to describe gender). Also, you asked why the perception of the other nude guests is wrong. However, the other guests are not wrong, it is in fact a person with a vagina and a person with a penis. The only "wrong" is that the assumption is made by the group that the person with a penis is in fact a man and visa-versa. As forementioned, we are conditioned to think this is the case, but no different than if you hear me play a rap song, you may be quick to assert that I like rap music as a whole, whereas I only liked that one song. Therefore, it's not that they other guests are "wrong", but that the conclusion was unfounded in this case.
Also, as mentioned in other comments, someone who is trangender doesn't need to prove they are transgender, just as you don't have to prove you are cisgender (which I'm assuming you are cisgender by your post and given confusion of gender identity). Thus, the burden doesn't lie on the person who is transgender to prove who they are, because they already know. Instead, the burden lies on you, because you are the confused one, not them.
Instead of being hung up on whether i'm perceived as male or female, I enjoy my body. I'm different and I'm beautiful.
Pamela
You spend all your time just testifying and justify. Try getting out of your closets, admitting proudly who you are, and just living your lives for a change.
While you are doing so, quit trying to control our lives -- it's a very male behavior on your part.
No "liaisons" AREN'T being arranged.
Not at a true nudist resort. Perhaps like at a place like Paradise Lakes or Caliente but the American Association for Nude Recreation (AANR) has removed them from their charter.
True nudist clubs AREN'T about sex. Anyone overheard planning a "liaison" would be immediately removed from the club and put on a black list!
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