Comments for To Be A Victim Or Maybe Not: Searching For Discrimination at http://ts-si.org , comment 1 to 14 out of 14 comments http://ts-si.org Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:48:15 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-705 Sue, you remind me of a statement a girlfriend told me about a guy she had dated: "He only seems to take a bath after we date". I was aghast at her comment but almost fell on the floor I laughed so hard. I loved the smell of my husband especially while lying next to him in bed. He though had many more features that I liked in him such as humor, intelligence, kindness, caring, consideration and more love than I have ever experienced even from the closest of my family. Yes, the love he felt for me was the main part of him that I will always remember. That is after all the most important part of life is it not? Diane - Diane Kearny Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:58:55 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-703 I have always been fond of men, even in an intimate way. The problem i have with men is their baggage and the sheer numbers of frogs some of us must kiss to find Mr. Right. When my girlfriend came into my life I saw what i wanted in a companion, baggage i could deal with and someone who was honest and loyal. I have dated men just not the right one and for me it's all about love not sex. Sex is just an extension my expression of love for someone, not a sport or hobby. I do have to say as others here have said.... The smell of a man is hard to resist. It's the other baggage so many of them have that turns me off. - Sue Robins Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:53:41 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-702 Leigh, I used to feel that way, that I was unworthy of being loved, so I didn't date. I still don't. Its not because I feel unworthy anymore, or because the world beat a path to my door to tell me I had to love someone. I simply realized that I was really not a good prospect for relationships, male or female. Sometimes we go through parts of our lives where that is just how it is. Some of us live there perpetually. For me it was all about learning what my priorities were after surgery. I changed a lot during the first few years post-op, likely as many of you have. That period more than the period between beginning to live full-time female and surgery was my period to really redefine who I was as a person. For me, pre-transition and transition were the same person, just passing better during transition ;D. But transition was an innately spiritual experience for me, more so than a physical experience. That process complete(including the surgery), I now found a profoundly different person inhabiting a slightly cosmetically changed body. The priorities had completely changed. I was now about my work, but my work was no longer my job. My job is still in semiconductors, but my work and my passion is about advocacy, education, and tilting at the wheels of injustice. Between the two, I found I no longer had the time or inclination to involve myself with romance. I thought about that for a long time, but both my job and my work were higher priority to me than just finding someone to shack up with. I found them both more personally rewarding, and more important to not just me but also the people around me. I don't live a solitary existence, I am surrounded by like minded people all fighting for the same thing. I am reminded of the Mae West quote, but where she said man I translate into modern nomenclature as a woman needs a relationship like a fish needs a bicycle. If you are busy and active, its kind of true in my experience. I've got too much to do as it is, why do I need a man to clean up after as well? My second point is an important idea not addressed here in Lisa'a article, why are some post-ops willing to self-identify now post-op when they never were willing to pre-op? Some try to denigrate by saying we cannot move past transition, but I was past transition by the time I had surgery. Yet here we are, a post-op actively engaged in supporting the rights of LGBT and in particular transgenders, with whom I no longer share any of the oppression. Why would anyone support a group that in some cases threated the privledge of their own minority? You won't find the answer to that in self-interest and logic... or arrested development. It is about doing what is right. Establishing rights for HBS people does not implicitly implying denying rights for transgendered people. The two can coexist. The two must coexist. They are not going away any more than we are. But that coexistence isn't going to happen by both sides standing back and lobbing artillery at each other. Israel and the Palestinians have been doing that for 60 years now and you see how far it has gotten both of them. Its time for a new paradigm where we learn to work together, to respect each other's differences and strenghts. As HBS we need to get past the fear of deconstructed gender, and insofar as straight society is more comfortable with who we are, we need to display some noblesse oblige and help those around us with whom society is still in fear of their gender identity. In som terms of societal acceptance we are the more blessed, but we should not be using that as a club against those who are less accepted in hopes of garnering for ourselves a better position. That is wrong, and in the long run we will not gain from such tactics. - ShannonB Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:39:13 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-701 No of course there is nothing inferior about loving a woman.. Love cares not the vessel it resides in. I certainly have loved more than one in my lifetime. What I meant by that is am I woman enough to be loved by a man equally without him being a tranny chaser or a closet gay ? One simply has to find out if only to satisfy their curiosity don't you think ? Diane brings up an issue that I too have wondered about from time to time and that is "why some post ops never consider relationships with men". My thoughts on that relate to time post surgical. I think that it may take a long time for some of us to trust men enough to consider a relationship with them. Those of us that were always heterosexual have loved and trusted women a long time pre-op. Many of us were married to them and may even have had children with them. Many feel a need to stay with their wives and girlfriends at least in the short time so as to both care for and be cared for. But more than that I truly feel that it takes time to make the leap. In my own case post op I dated a lesbian woman for 10 years, then became involved with transsexual woman who even today remains my best friend and business partner. She was very instrumental in my transition to dating men in that she rescued me from myself having spent so long in the lesbian role she helped me see that I was not lesbian at all. I think it has to be explained here that my early surgery was not very succesful and had left me with a rather badly done result that was most obvious. This was what led me to "give up" early on and it took me almost 20 years before I finally had a redo with Toby Meltzer that lifted me out of the rut I had gotten in. The only thing worse than having male genitals was to have deformed genitals that were obviously the result of the surgeons knife. Once free of that I was then able to make that move to a normal male/female relationship without feeling inadequate. Perhaps had the initial surgury been better things would have worked out entirely different. I am in the middle of moving so I will not be able to respond for a while. - Leigh Smith Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:55:11 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-700 Yes Leigh, I think perhaps we did go through a different passage as those today. I never was attracted to women sexually but did so much want to be attached to them socially. No, I was not homosexual, just avoided sex altogether since my brain told me one thing and my body was not able to conform. Yes, I will admit to having had a crush on a grammar school boy but nothing came of it but my aching heart. And, I will admit to being involved a very, very few times with college guys that were sexual in nature but not in homosexual extremes. Hard to explain but I think you got the drift. I must admit to being confused at times. Is it that some after surgery never accepted a relationship with a male or they simply never were interested and/or their pre-surgical relationships were only with women and that was what was to follow? A valid question I am asked by others at times as if I had the answer. But that answer is not mine to give. I do wonder though. When I met my husband to be he did not know of my past. After dating for a while he asked me to marry him. I had already dated another guy previously who also wanted me to marry him but his proposal came with a condition: move to his home country of Germany. Nope, did not want to be in a foreign country should I run into 'sexual identity' problems so that refusal was mine alone and had nothing to do with my past. I deeply loved Bill but still had to face whether to confide in him or not. That was harder to deal with than even my transition. Finally told him and he took it calmly but did say he needed time to think. Figured that was the same as goodbye. Six months later we ran across each other and he invited me to join him for a drink and dinner. It was shortly thereafter he again asked me to marry him and the rest is history. A very happy history and a loving 30 year commitment that ended with his passing over a year ago and one I must admit brings with it joyous memories as well as tears. I was blessed! Diane - Diane Kearny Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:06:40 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-699 Oh, yes, her exact words were [quote]I let Sharon choose me ...[/quote] Well, that is one way of looking at it. I seem to recall it as a rather clumsy collaboration that ended well ... - Sharon S. Gaughan Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:34:40 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-698 I doubt if Leigh meant it the way it sounds, but she wrote: [quote][i] I convinced myself that I was not worthy of the love of a man and settled for life with a woman.[/i][/quote] I am certain that she didn't mean that there was something inferior about a woman loving another woman. Sharon and I certainly don't think so. I let Sharon choose me after I had turned down a couple of marriage proposals from men. - Lisa Thompson Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:11:18 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-697 I am not sure that we didn't have the best chance of success compared to new transitioners today. We moved ahead at a time when the publics perception of us was not yet tainted with the negative conotations percieved today. However, having said that I still do not believe that even today the vast majority of public opinion is anything but supportive when presented with true transsexualism. Post transition is not often talked about. Many simply assume that after surgury all problems dissapear. I have often said that the real transition actually starts after surgury, arguable but its something you just can't know till you have gotten there. Now comes the time when the fight is over, the battle won and for many the direction is lost. Outwardly nothing has changed. Life goes on as before except now the goal has evaporated and your still the same old you. For many, it's just not what they thought it would be. Those that shunned you before still shun you. Men are not beating a path to your door laden down with roses and chocolates and your friends are still scattered throughout the world on endless chat sites. Your left wondering where to go from here and for many it becomes depressing. Dating men becomes a challenge. What if they suspect, what if you just tell them? Do they have a right to know? Will they run screaming into the night or leave you lying senseless in a dark alley. Its a daunting prospect. You tell yourself your as good as any other woman, yet you know that your past is still out there, somewhere in the minefield waiting to blow up in your face. Many decide not to take the chance and they miss the true calling. It was that way for me. I buried myself in my work for many years. I convinced myself that I was not worthy of the love of a man and settled for life with a woman. Nothing had changed. It wasn't until almost 20 years later that life came banging on my door again, waking me up and yelling in my ear that my journey was not complete. Now came my second transition, and now the transition was to be all encompassing and life changing. I threw off my fears and complacency and started dating men. Out of the six I dated in the course of 6 Months, three were short lived, one I lived with for 2 months, one I loved which was not to be, and the last one was Robert, who even after disclosure had already vowed his love for me. Oh he did some research, went to the online resources and finally told me he couldn't find very much about who I was, but a huge amount of bullshit about what I wasn't. He gave me the key to his house, a key to his truck and took me over to meet his parents. Then he presented me with a ring. I guess the reason I am telling you all this is to emphasise that things do not have to be the way the transgender paint the pictures. I feel that they create their own discrimination simply by demanding respect they are not willing to earn. One cannot legislate the way others feel toward you, but one can earn that respect simply by being ones self. The world is knee deep in bullshit and as george carlin said, its all bad for you! ;) - Leigh Smith Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:43:33 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-696 Our HBS group not only has in place a suggested SOC for HBS born but we presented it for consideration at the 2007 WAPTH Symposium. A copy was also sent to the American Psychological Association. It clearly outlines the criteria for those in transition and follow-up considerations. The transgender do not like it because it does not allow them to control the needs of others who might not share their whims and or delusions: http://www.harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org/ - Diane Kearny Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:37:49 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-694 This article isn't very angry but it is logical. If it was me, I would obliterate all the capitalistic stuctuyres hat got us into this fix. People are different though. - Marge Hornack Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:33:29 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-693 Yes Leigh, the transgender 'have so much trouble with it' simply because they are not HBS born and many others are simply pseudo transsexuals who use us as a crutch in support of their demands which only lead, not to surgery, but into the closet where most of them hide. Like you I was very well accepted during transition. I began transition in New York City then I moved back to my home town and a short while later into an apartment in a two family home in a residential area. I moved in during full real life transition and felt so very uncomfortable not yet legally female and so scared I might be 'found out'. The man and woman who owned the house and lived in the other apartment did not know anything about my condition. In time I confided in her but she told me not to tell her husband. He would not understand she thought. During the summer before my Sept. surgery which was a year after I moved there they asked me to call them aunt and uncle, - that is how close we became. After surgery I finally told him the truth but up until then he simply thought I was having female problems. Once told he simply said, 'I have only known you as a girl so why should I think of you as anything else now? I cried! I made so many friends during my transition, one of whom drove me to the hospital for my surgery and later asked me to be the godmother of her daughter. We are still the closest of friends. In fact I spent Easter Sunday with her brother and his wife and children, her other brothers daughter and their families in Charlotte, N.C. where we also attended church together. Later we were joined at the Easter dinner table with another of her sisters and her husband who drove up from Virginia. You are right Lisa, it is not discrimination we suffer because of being HBS born. The discrimination comes front and center when people are led to believe we are primarily something we are not, (i.e. gay, lesbian, transvestite, surgery for sex, etc.). I have no issue of identity but to join me to them as if I too share that identity I strongly object. I have been in the most macho places and with guys and even some gals who really might scare the daylights out of you if you met them in a dark alley. But, during transition when it was perceived I was preparing for SAS the questions would arise. But, when I nervously explained I was somewhat surprised. Some just said 'what took you so long' and others simply made no issue of it. Now with the confusion of the transgender I doubt the same understanding and protection I got back then would be offered today. Now who is really to blame for the discrimination? Is it the ignorant or should I just be honest and point at those who have confused the public into thinking we are nothing but an element under that so confusing 'pick a label' umbrella term - transgender. I want no transgender special privilege but I will not be denied my right to be what I am - a woman. Diane - Diane Kearny Sun, 27 Apr 2008 14:24:05 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-692 An excellent overview Lisa, very succinct and informative! Your observations and reporting are detailed with such exactness that I found myself nodding in agreement throughout. I think your presentation should be considered a basic primer for all individuals interested in, or affected by, HBS. Of special interest to me is your summation. Although I wholeheartedly agree with, and endorse, your outline for an HBS Medical Bill there will always remain those working outside such a system to corrupt it for their own gain and imperil its effectiveness. Controls to ensure the system’s efficacy without being overly restrictive would always be problematic…not impossible, but difficult to say the least. Such a system is long overdue but its genesis seems forever stalled in a social and professional act of denial. Specifically I can foresee areas of contention in the formation and performance of such a system’s core administrative body. We don't want or need another WPATH organization, we need an organization dedicated to addressing and correcting all aspects of HBS - world wide. Imagine the level of research and protracted debates, the years devoted to compromise and agreement during the establishment of such a working body’s agenda - their consensual professional definition of HBS and its accompanying Standards of Care, i.e. criteria for diagnosis and treatment; measures to ensure that true HBS-born not fully falling within those criteria do not get unfairly pre-empted from system benefits yet those who do not are identifiable with means for removal and alternate treatment protocols; legal specificities identified and mandated; and so on. The complexity of it boggles my mind, yet I see us – as a society – heading towards the day when it becomes reality, perhaps not in my lifetime but we seem to be inching closer to that day. As has been proven, the occurrence of HBS is neither culturally or socially prejudiced, it can and does affect anyone. Therefore it is logical to assume that there are HBS affected politicians, doctors, lawyers, and researchers. I like to think that there are already people in these fields today who recognize the need and are poised to begin implementation of just such a HBS Medical Bill. Now if we could just find that magic ‘delete’ key to make the transgender detractors go away, especially WPATH. - Kelly M, Idaho Sun, 27 Apr 2008 14:17:15 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-689 You are right on the money with this article. I started transition in the mid 70's and was literally astounded at how much help and understanding I got from mainstream. While my own family could not get totally behind me I found myself taken in by a family of four, with 2 teenagers, a girl and a boy, and they all but adopted me. I had met them quite by chance when another family I met had taken me along to the merchant seaman's club where I was welcomed by all. I worked at the King's Hotel on the sea front, as a silver service waitress. Within 2 months I was promoted to head waitress despite the fact that management and staff knew my gender status. Your right, it's all about being real, and everyone can tell when your not. Thats why the transgenders have so much trouble with it. - Leigh Smith Sun, 27 Apr 2008 02:09:31 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/3154-to-be-a-victim-or-maybe-not-searching-for-discrimination.html#comment-686 Thank You Lisa, this is a very well written article adn concur completely that for those that are or post HBS, our goal should be as you say a "Harry Benjamin Medical Bill" particularly with emphasis on correcting the birth certifcate and adding coverage uner ALL medical insurance plans. I see far too many that are so anxious to change their BC based on only an Orchidectomy which to me doesn't mean a correction of the body to the true gender. I do understand that fo some HBS, that's an interim step, but it's NOT a "sex change". - Pamela Sun, 27 Apr 2008 00:07:33 +0100