Comments for Sex, Gender, and Bathrooms: A Discussion of Transgender (Part 4) at http://ts-si.org , comment 1 to 40 out of 20 comments http://ts-si.org Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:39:51 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-371 Information: The BSTc studies mentioned were done in the Netherlands and did include not only known transsexuals but also transvestites and homosexuals. The TV's/TG's and the homosexuals were found not to have the same indicators as did the transsexuals in regard to the hypothalamus. Further genome studies by the Swiss indicated like results. http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/ABSzR1c_X5CB56hrUdcI4xEuqpes_PzhhyZfEyJZgY5JAT1RFHZVqO7BMkowyqbwzj-gwmaGprCu8yKASDrmlA/TRANSSEXUAL BRAIN STUDIES/Original Studies, BSTc.doc - Diane Kearny Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:11:19 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-360 I understand the misgiving that Pam stated in regard to the suggested 'HBS Standard of Care' so perhaps she might understand the reasoning behind the issue of time in RLT/RLE. As many of us know a few of those better identified as transgender succeeded in obtaining surgery through their government medical programs and then years later recanted and sued for damages claiming they really were not transsexual to begin with and the 'gatekeeper' should have been aware of their 'lies'. I fully understand the angst of those required to wait for approval having gone through that issue myself under the care of Dr Benjamin and Dr Ihlenfeld. Fact is I was put on hormones after my second visit and approved for surgery in less than a year. But today there seems not to be many doctors who might be able to weed out the TG illusionist's so there is in place a requirement forcing many who are really HBS/TS to suffer the same long waits caused by the influx of those who never should have surgery but are seemingly on a high simply because they 'pass' or 'act like a women or man'...the transgender. I would have no problem if a statement of consent were to be the requirement for everyone requesting surgery and that consent would be binding without legal recourse to the contrary. Fact is that the legal system in many countries seems to look for the victim forgetting that some travel their avenues of choice and make mistakes on their own without prodding by those they later blame for their own mistaken decisions. Oh woe is me is now so often the missive. Some may not be aware but giving hormones during the RLE period is in itself a self test for the patient. It allows them to fully understand the loss of their sexual ability they might have enjoyed while living as their birth sex. With true transsexuals this would not usually be an issue but with TG's it can be and usually is. For this reason I can only suppose that the RLT serves its purpose. We suffer but then in the long term we do not have to suffer the regrets of the wannabee's who disclaim all corrective surgeries as being examples of their own mistake. They just might be weeded out by the long trial and not become a thorn in the side of those to follow who might just find the regrets of a rare few imposing new and more stringent rules upon those really in need. In that regard I must agree with the RLE/RLT. Diane - Diane Kearny Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:38:12 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-357 I couldn't help notice that there was some intentional muddying of the waters by Sara in mentioning of the Danish autopsy study. As far as I could ascertain from any of the articles the subjects were ts or hbs indentified. None of the subjects identified as TG or casual crossdressers. Also thru that study it was identified that there is little structural difference between a gay males brain and a heterosexual males brain. The same was shown between a lesbian brain and a heterosexual womans brain. The big difference occured when the HBS/Ts brain was examined with or without hormones or grs those brains matched the gender they proffessed to be. Maybe Mara or Sara would like to offer up the brains of older soon to be deceased transgenders for the same autopsy type exam. I have made my feelings clear to my family that should I die I do not object to my body being used for this type of research. Amy M - Amy mcdonald Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:02:47 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-315 Now I begin to understand Mara's problem with understanding: [quote] For your info I AM NOT Transgendered, just a individual studying the scientific aspects of Transgenderism for a paper I am writing. [/quote] Then we have this little gem: [quote] Sorry, I was refering to the Harry Benjamin Standards (of Care) That should help clarify any confusion. And no, the standards are obsolete as far as I can tell. [/quote] Now I would agree to this, the "Standards of Care" are somewhat out dated and lack the backing of scientific studies in some regards such as the length of RLE/RLT and they are oft times abused by being used as absolute requirements for transitioning. [quote] Its funny when people wont admit they are wrong they just tend to keep on believing they are even more right. [/quote] Now to me this seems to apply to both sara and mara as both want to insist they are right no matter what. Pamela - Pam Dunn Sat, 02 Feb 2008 05:51:53 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-311 Sara, What I find especially offensive is your attempt to define what is and what is not and then apply it to me and others. I was a patient of Dr Harry Benjamin and Dr Charles Ihlenfeld his associate. Had corrective surgery in 1972. How dare you or any of the other followers of Charles 'Virginia' Prince demand I accept his coinage for transvestites and apply it to me since I was diagnosed as transsexual without any association with any of the gender variant inclusions even then from what was singularly transsexual. Prince self identified and you accept that but condemn us for doing the same with our use of HBS in honor of the man who advanced and understood our medical condition as being biological rather than the chosen identity (transgender) of a man who simply crossdressed and published a fetish magazine advancing his deviance. [quote]You are not Transgendered; even though you fit the definition exactly.[/quote] DK: Exactly???? How so when transgender as originally coined was meant only to describe UNDER A MASK those that were either 'exactly' transvestites, she-males, gay crossdressers, and gender variants of all stripes and actually excluded from the transgender lexicon those who were classed as transsexual. [quote]You are not queer, even though most peoples definition (either old[like odd] or modern[like gender queer] says you are. [/quote] DK: Now you too want to define us as somehow being driven by sexual orientation much like the GLBT has advanced and also picked up by the bigots on the political fringe as well as the radical religious. You and your ilk say we are and others pick up on just that and confuse us with what you demand we identify as. DK: You may call yourself 'gender queer' if you like and I might accept just that. After all many in the transgender community seem to easily relate to that association. I do not since my gender was never in doubt or 'odd' except perhaps in reflection to my genitalia before correction. [quote]Now, deciding to make up your own definitions, even though the industry (medical or otherwise) standard and common use says otherwise; I don't have a problem with. That's your business. But when you start to argue with people who pull the book out and say "hey, it says here you are transgendered" I have a problem with. I also have a problem with the verbal symantic confusion you create when you apply your own definition to others.[/quote] DK: Please look at the definition of HBS before you define it wrongly: [url]http://www.harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org[/url]. DK: Of course the confused need a label to define themselves and usually are in want of belonging to a greater number that might not even describe what and who they really are. That is why so many under the transgender label find comfort. It allows them to hide the fact of what they might be rather what they truly are. It is not a medical term and never was but for some reason many seem to assume it is. No, transgender is simply a non-biological social construct designed to mask the real identities of those using that banner of protection to hide under. It is an escapist term in its simplicity. DK: I will admit that I feel without doubt transgender is an appropriate inclusive nomenclature for those who feel that their gender is somewhat flexible. But that is not what those who identify as HBS born feel since we know our gender was inborn and we acted upon our need to bring body into conformity with our gender. That is not 'transing' our gender but simply conforming to it. That is what Harry Benjamin Syndrome defines which does make clear it is not a part of transgender or any trans prefix. DK: No, the transgender are applying their definition upon us. Transgender is just that, a 'transing of gender'; transsexual was always a medical term and meant 'transing sex'. You mix and match like oil to water. Just having overwhelming numbers of those that truly fit the transgender identity under your umbrella does not give you the right to deny us to self identify as HBS born, a rather rare anomaly; a term that closely identifies with the pioneer in research and the treatment of transsexuals. It also gives us a clearer identity that does not equate with many transgenders who use the term transsexual as a porn introduction. [quote]You guys are arguing symantics. [/quote] DK: Transgender is not confusing????? Does it have an 'exact' meaning????? NO, DOES NOT!! DK: We are arguing against your inclusionary demand that we assume your transvestic label transgender for ourselves and diminish us as if a sub-set under that label. - Diane Kearny Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:31:30 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-307 Certain visitors have been prevented from posting any further comments due to violations of the TS-Si.org Terms of Service. TS-Si welcomes responsible comments. Please be respectful of others. We reserve the right to delete a comment that is abusive, exceptionally incoherent, off-topic, or uses excessive foul language. We will not tolerate comments that contains homophobic, racist, sexist, transphobic, or other slurs, or consists of a solicitation and/or advertising. Any attempt to flood, spam, or otherwise disrupt TS-Si.org operations are subject to further sanctions. - Sharon S. Gaughan Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:30:49 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-303 Like everyone else involved in the transgender political movement, you are trying to drown us out by repeating the same words over and over again. Endlessly chanting the definitions the gender theorists and academics and the transgenders made up, changed, and keep revising to meet whatever their current political goals are does not make them true. And contrary to the world that you live in, there are HBS men who DO have surgery to acquire a penis. The technique is at the stages labioplasty was 30 years ago -- so many transmen prefer to make do with a clit enlarged from testosterone -- but the technique is improving and the surgery should be reasonably successful within the next 10-20 years I would expect. Now, stop drinking the transgender kool-aid for a while. - Lisa Thompson Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:30:36 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-302 See, the thing is, You have the right to pick and choose which definitions you use. You even have the right to make up your own. You don't have the right to insist that other people use them as well. If you did, it would apply to your percieved oponents as well and there would be no definition of anything, as we could never get 100% agreement. - Sara M Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:26:07 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-301 You guys are basicaly picking and choosing which definitions of words you will and will not use. You are not Transgendered; even though you fit the difinition exactly. You are not queer, even though most peoples definition (either old[like odd] or modern[like gender queer] says you are. You are not a blog; even though the industry standard definition of what this site is (and I would know, I am a Web, and Interface Media Design major) says you are. Now, deciding to make up your own definitions, even though the industry (medical or otherwise) standard and common use says otherwise; I don't have a problem with. That's your business. But when you start to argue with people who pull the book out and say "hey, it says here you are transgendered" I have a problem with. I also have a problem with the verbal symantic confusion you create when you apply your own definition to others. Now if you want to call the sky green, even though everyone else calls it blue, then fine. But don't be suprised when people get confused, and then later angry when they find out that you are not dyslexic and are actually intentionally doing it. You guys are arguing symantics. With regard to the bathroom issue, I would have to agree with the person who you quoted in part two. Quite frankly if someone is TS on the basis of thier neurological makeup then you have no grounds to deny someone who is say neurologically (I.E. intersexxed) female the right to use the womens rest room. You just don't. The other thing is that if the "plumbing" arguement is to be applied to Transexuals, then it would apply to HBS MEN as well. HBS men do not ever get a penis. And what about hermafroites? They may be smack in the middle even to have two sets of DNA. Are you going to say they cant use the restroom of thier choice. Your argument is built on a haystack. Close examination reviels that it is actually just a bunch of straw. And then of course, you are not Transgendered, you just fit the definition exactly. See what I'm saying. You guys are making chop suey out of the english language and attemting to controll definitions. You can't controll it. It's never going to work. And all you are going acomplish is getting a whole lot of very reasonalbe people angry at you. And getting yourself angry in the process. Now I ask you; How is this helping the world? Sara - Sara M Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:07:44 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-300 The "HBS/TS" usage is transitional. The "TS" is at times included - for now - to support he legacy situation. As the original TS-Si.org editorial pointed out when we began the switchover, we would accomodate traditional, common parlance, usage for a reasonable period of time. - Sharon S. Gaughan Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:23:39 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-299 Quote:"Read the evidence on this site (the actual research). There is no silver bullet, only (at this point) an accumulating series of research inferences and suggestions, hundreds of papers, that suggests that the answer to HBS lies in the neurobiology. Read what we wrote: the desire for sex realignment surgery is a key descriptive for the diagnosis of Harry Benjamin Syndrome. We say nothing about the diagnosis of transgenderism or those who identify as "non-op" transsexuals other than that they are not HBS." End Quote Yes, but this site choose's to use "HBS/TS" rather than "Transexual" in it's difinitions. I read it in the site "about" section. However the "TS" part of HBS/TS means Transexual. So what you are saying is that you see a difference between Transexuals who are HBS and transexuals who are not? I don't know if I am understanding you correctly. And if that's so, then my point stands, as I was saying that the definition was obsolete and that current evidence indicates that "Transexuals" and even "Transgender" (using the umbrella term) people are actually Intersexxed.(with the possible exception of Crossdressers) Sara - Sara M Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:14:40 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-298 So this got posted two seconds after my last one. "Read the evidence on this site (the actual research). There is no silver bullet, only (at this point) an accumulating series of research inferences and suggestions, hundreds of papers, that suggests that the answer to HBS lies in the neurobiology. Read what we wrote: the desire for sex realignment surgery is a key descriptive for the diagnosis of Harry Benjamin Syndrome. We say nothing about the diagnosis of transgenderism or those who identify as "non-op" transsexuals other than that they are not HBS." I agree but why does your articles negate that... Instead you took a different viewpoint in your articles??? Like I said you are confusing at best. But dont worry I am done with this Low rate website, it isnt potent to the world anyways, so what do i care I some self proclaimed quack whats to slag off on trans people thats your right anyways. Just please consider there feelings a little more, I think they give a great deal towards cisgendered people, and most of us cisgendered people see them as being wrong instead of it being ok. I just couldnt believe that I found a person who IS TG and transphobic... - Mara Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:03:49 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-295 you know i think it kinda shows that you write your topic after you write your paper. I give you a D- for effort. I will stop stalking (googling) you miss Lisa, but honestly I think that sara person has a valid point and you should do your best to address her, given that she is transgendered and I feel trying really hard to understand your work and your intentions and I would never plagarize your work, I am trying to go for a A on this one, I cant afford to fail on your behalf. Maybe if I need some low rate poetry. - Mara Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:51:21 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-294 Read the evidence on this site (the actual research). There is no silver bullet, only (at this point) an accumulating series of research inferences and suggestions, hundreds of papers, that suggests that the answer to HBS lies in the neurobiology. Read what we wrote: the desire for sex realignment surgery is a key descriptive for the diagnosis of Harry Benjamin Syndrome. We say nothing about the diagnosis of transgenderism or those who identify as "non-op" transsexuals other than that they are not HBS. - Lisa Thompson Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:49:22 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-290 I have taught at the high school and university levels. Judging from what you have posted here, Mara, your paper is in trouble. You seem unable to express an idea and then support that idea with facts and information. You might start with narrowing your topic down (pick an angle) and then write a concise topic sentence. (although I usually recommend to write the topic sentence last -- that way you actually know what you are writing about) I'd probably give you a "C" for what you've done so far (if you were in high school) or a low "C" to a "D" if you were in college. And one last thought: don't plagiarize. We have a lot of teachers and professors who visit TS-Si frequently. - Lisa Thompson Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:33:20 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-289 If only you had been honest about your intentions at the outset, we could have saved a lot of energy and bandwidth. Moreover, the results would be quite different. [quote]For your info I AM NOT Transgendered, just a individual studying the scientific aspects of Transgenderism for a paper I am writing. My view point that i have been given is to disprove GLBT legitamacy, I am suppossed to argue that being gay, lesbian, or transgendered is not ok and do it in the most scientific way possible. It is not my personal belief, but a assignment, it will be read against a paper debating the legitimacy of GLBT.[/quote] - Sharon S. Gaughan Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:32:16 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-288 I was glad to read that last post. as far as what you said re: thier status: "...without Sex Reassignment Surgery, there can be no definite conclusion as to their actual status. We know plenty of transgenders who started on hormones but changed their mind later." The same could be said of some people who got SRS. There are many who wished they didn't. Also I would disagree that without SRS a status cannot be confirmed. Physical surgery does not change change the initial neuro-diagnosis. If someone has a nerological structure of, say, female, then they neurologically are, regardless of whether they have had surgery or whatever. That is exactly my point. The stance that "only those who have had surgery or are going to are Transexuals" seems to not hold up to this new research. It seems quite possible that someone could be nerologically confirmed to be a transexual, and yet not desire surgery for instance. If that were the case, then the aforementioned stance would be domonstratebly false. As it would prove that TS was not dependant on the desire for surgery. In a historic context it is already demonstrated false, as TS people have existed throught history, however only recently has such surgery become available. The idea that a physiological disorder that has existed throught history, depending on a recent modern medical procedure seems absurd. Othersise one would have to say that there were no transexuals prior to HBS as there was no surgery available. There most certainly were as to say otherwise would be to say that the HBS diagnosis was the cause of transexualism. It most certainly isn't. I don't see any evidence to say that everyone with the neurological system of the other gender is automatically going to agree that surgery is for them. That seems to be a big jump to conclusions and I see no evidence for it. Only lack of evidence. (which agreeable doesn't mean evidence for it doesn't exist, but both imperical and inferred current evidence suggests that the desire for surgery is not dependant upon the physiological neurosystem of the individual) Sara - Sara M Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:31:40 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-285 I tried to speak in a kind way, it didnt come out so great and I am not the best with words. But Sara M. seems to be asking the same questions I was trying to get at, and she does it in a much better way that I do. Still you shrug a legitimate well mannered individual off. Its funny when people wont admit they are wrong they just tend to keep on believing they are even more right. For your info I AM NOT Transgendered, just a individual studying the scientific aspects of Transgenderism for a paper I am writing. My view point that i have been given is to disprove GLBT legitamacy, I am suppossed to argue that being gay, lesbian, or transgendered is not ok and do it in the most scientific way possible. It is not my personal belief, but a assignment, it will be read against a paper debating the legitimacy of GLBT. You Lisa have attempted to write my paper but you did a failing job, and only came off transphobic, and rude towards this sect of society. Oh by the way your website SO IS TOTALLY A BLOG... Get a life people. Blogs are lame. - Mara Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:14:22 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-283 alibi: we are slow to respond because we are working on the site, researching studies, writing articles, etc. The Staff is small and, as you may have noticed, there are no ads on the site. We pay the staff nothing and they all have day jobs. As to the studies: Those early studies are indicative, but not conclusive. This Journal of Endocrinology and Metabolism study had an extremely small sample size -- all the subjects were pre-op. All had been castrated except one. Subjects were chosen based on self-identification as TS but, without Sex Reassignment Surgery, there can be no definite conclusion as to their actual status. We know plenty of transgenders who started on hormones but changed their mind later. The study needs to be done with a larger sample composed of post-ops (which will make the same more definative by weeding out the poseurs). Recent advances in MRI and other techniques enable study of live HBS men and women. The confirmation of HBS, however, will come from elsewhere, possibly from one of the scientists whose works we report on on TS-Si. The ongoing research in embryology and neurobiology is very exciting. The answer won't be in one gene, but in a combination of gene expression, DNA, and RNA during fetal development. (Just as there will not be a single magic gene for HBS, we doubt there will be a single gene that says you are gay.) If there were a large enough sample of self-identified transgenders (vice HBS) who were public, research could also be done on transgendered people. However, currently there is no indication that there are genetic causes for transgenderism. We agree that HBS is a specific form of intrasex. (But I wouldn't insist on it to a person with the more general form of intrasex.) Research could shed light on the intrasex condition over the next decade. Read the science articles on TS-Si, then read the research papers to which they link. - Lisa Thompson Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:05:36 +0100 http://ts-si.org/global-warning/2902-sex-gender-and-bathrooms-a-discussion-of-transgender-part-4.html#comment-281 I said: "Being transexual is a physiological phenomenon. Vol 85 No. 5 of the Journal of Endocrinology and Metabolism has an article showing that a)tepical genetic males and females have different neuron patterns and numbers - especially in the hypothalimus. In their study, which they repeated, 100% of the time, MTF transexuals had a female brain. 100% of the time, FTM transexuals had a male brain. The researchers admit that it was a limited study. Not evryone donates their body to science3. Nevertheless, a result of 100% does not happen often in one's scientific career! The August 2005 Journal of Psychoneuralendocrinolgy suggests a genetic link - one that not only explains transgenderism but also homosexuality in general. If this data is to be taken seriously, then by some definition it is likely that most people who identify as TS or TG are in actuallity Intersexxed in some way, if at the very least, neurologically. That said, I think simply Identifying individuals as TS or having HBS by DSM-V standards is obsolete if more people may be affected than previously thought. It is quite possible for someone to be nerologically female (or male) and have the rest of thier body be different(or perhaps not in the case of other IS people) and still be TS. The nerological diference would explain the feeling association of the other sex regardless of ones body. I would say then, that the current HBS definition is obsolete as well as the HBS care standards." - Sara M Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:37:16 +0100